Hi Linda, You make many excellent points. I really identified with this one: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "But - even saying that - I would be the first to stand up and defend the MLM business model. Not every company using it, and certainly not the paypal randomizer, but the business model of MLM itself is sound." - Linda Caroll ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Indeed, the MLM business model is sound (despite my mathematical analyses). On many fronts (on a micro level) it should work. What I have found is that it is the people, not the plan itself, who mess it up. As in all things it it the select few who try to gain an unfair advantage who ruin it for everybody. It's a bit like standing in the queue at the bank and then in come a couple of guys with balaclavas on their heads. You just know there is gonna be trouble. This "weighting" thing with the Paypal randomizer has overtones of the balaclava example above. Paying more for extra exposure is probably a waste of money for those who do it. How can you measure results? And if it works... then that just disadvantages all the $5 participants. Either way it seems wrong to me. BUT - somebody is making money! See? You don't have to don a balaclava to rob people these days. You can do it anonymously over the internet. Cyber-crime - the way of the future for intelligent crooks. I'll leave it at that. Thanks to all for the lively debate! Gary Simpson

Hello again, I have been trying for an hour to concentrate on something else but you people just keep posting comments. I find it rather entertaining even though I am being side-tracked. LOL! David said: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The top 0.03% Gary spoke of not industry average. It is more like 3% which is closer to what it is for any business category." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I actually worked this out many years ago. It was very accurate at the time as I had all the stats. It may have changed. I agree that 3% to 5% sounds about right for any business category. And that would be a reflection of the owners. Some people are just not cut out for business - sad but true. I'd also like to make the point that ALL businesses could do better. Over here in Australia most businesses have an awful attitude of "like it or lump it, take it or leave it." When I am faced with that attitude I leave. I did it in a restaurant just last week and I was starving hungry at the time. But... in business if I am treated poorly you won't see me for dust. Back to the subject at hand... Linda, you said: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "One of my best clients used to be an Amway Double Diamond. He has shared speaking podiums with celebrities and American presidents and is in the American Who's Who of Business. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How interesting! Double Diamond huh? Let me inform anyone who may not know... An Amway "Double Diamond" is somebody who has two groups of six "legs" or downlines who have each achieved a significant business level called "Direct Distributor." A DD is one heck of a HEAVY HITTER in Amway - top of the heap, so to speak. You say he "used to be a Double Diamond." Linda, without revealing anything to identify the person, do you know why he is no longer involved? I have heard that so many of the "big pins" as they are called have quit - not only Amway but also other MLM's. All these MLM's seem to have their surges and resurgences then they fall off. It's cyclical. As David mentioned in a previous post... Amway goes on. To that I added the comments about "the swirling masses" on the low levels. That is the ONLY thing that keeps them going - the foot soldiers who drive the lonely roads late at night attending meetings and selling products. Again from Linda: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "He has always said that from the moment he joined, he realized that the way to make any money was to figure out how to climb up the ladder in the organization so that he was at the top, where the money is, becuase there is no money at the bottom. Very true words from someone that's done it." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No truer words were ever spoken by any MLM'er. How candidly honest. From experience I know that the breakeven point in Amway is a "well structured" (ie wide and deep) Emerald business. Emerald is the level below Diamond. How few even reach Emerald level? One thing we all agree on here is that the money is always made right at the VERY top. The Paypal Randomizer will be no different. Oh, by the way, somebody made an excellent point way back in this thread that the terms and conditions of Paypal expressly prohibit these sorts of plans. Now there is a big HINT for everybody. Linda, you certainly have opened a Pandora's Box here - lots of good comments, some verbal jousting - all good stuff! Gary Simpson

Thanks Linda, good post. I work the hours I have to for the teams - motivation, training, news, not promoting and building more downlines for my mainbiz. In here I have joined some smallbiz, and this I build "inside". If I leave Adland I can get many hours off, but as I love Adland and my friends - I will stay :-) There is SO much interesting in here You know - poems, training, info, news, biz, Advisors-forums and much much more.... There are not many members that are so active as me, but I like to visit the forums and make a post around. SFI (as I think You wrote about here) is one of the biz I do not work with, it just rolling by it self after 5 years membership. Thanks for updates. Arild

Linda, Wow, lively debate here. I might as well put in another two cents' worth so someone can shoot me down. ;-) I agree with you and a few of the others that MLM is a sound concept. I'd better, as two of my four businesses are based on that, and another is a two-tier program. The last one is a good old-fashioned brick and mortar real estate business. I like MLM even though the first two or three I tried didn't make money for me. I suppose many don't like it because they can't face up to the fact that most people who don't make money have chosen not to by their actions or lack thereof. Now please no one in this forum think I'm pointing fingers. I'm actually speaking from personal experience. There is no reason why someone who is truly determined to make money in MLM can't do so. It's true they might not in some compensation plans, because some have been carefully constructed to look great while being almost impossible for the average person to work. Yet some people manage to make money even in those. One of the phrases you'll hear in the industry is "Will you do what others won't so you can live as others can't." Sure, it plays on the dream of unimaginable wealth, but the kernel of truth is there: some just won't do what it takes. Others make it harder than it needs to be. Everyone chooses his or her own results in life. That's true whether we're talking about MLM or being an employee; whether business or personal life. If we would own up to that and be accountable for our outcomes, we'd be better off. I may not be a great recruiter, but I can team up with someone who is, raise my skill level through training, find a program that doesn't require so many recruits. Learn to do it on the internet! I can choose. So I choose programs that will personally benefit me and are worth the price to me whether or not I make money. And you know, I have made some. Eventually I'll make more. I'm working every day to bring my actions into alignment with my stated desires. As someone said above, nearly every MLM or other type of networking opportunity does one thing really well, and that's expose their membership to the best motivational material available. The result for me has been that I'm making more money in real estate, and having less time to do MLM. No matter, it will come. Cheri

Hi Cheri, You make some good points. I won't "shoot you down." I know what that is like. Some other forums that I have had experience on have members of their population who exist only to criticize and denigrate other people. I have suffered that because I have very strong opinions on things. It's easy to hide behind an email address and do that. It takes no courage at all. When people who post useful comments are criticized they are then less apt to come back and say something else. If you retaliate then the whole forum descends into a slugfest of rudeness. I'm glad to see that such a thing does not happen here. I have seen forums vacated very quickly by the actions of these types. Robust debate and strong opinion is good. Both sides get an opportunity to put alternative cases. Then other people ("lurkers") can form their own opinion. After all, the exchange of knowledge and information is what it should be about. Yes, I mentioned the subject of motivational books and tapes etc. When I was recruited into Amway all those years ago that was one of the things that enticed me. I saw it as a motivational study course with a "business" attached. No such thing with the "randomizer." Just pay the $5 and keep your fingers crossed, I think. It is good to hear that you are doing well in real estate because of your exposure to personal development materials. That in itself may outweigh the drudgery of having to consider each new person that you meet a "prospect" for MLM. That is one of the toughest things - jeopardizing a new friendship by feeling as though you always have to "show the opportunity." It can tear you apart emotionally: "Will I, won't I, will I, won't I?" As an aside, Cheri... Real estate is booming in Australia. Last month prices moved upward 4.4% across the board where I live and that was just for the 31 day month. Sorry everybody else that was just for Cheri - but you may have found it interesting. Gary Simpson