Hi! Woohoo - NOW we're talking! I'm seeing some real discussion here, and how good to see. THAT is what brainstorming and discussing is all about. I found some gems I wanted to reply to. David said; ========================= "I am not defending any one program. I am just pointing out that a purely analytical approach never works in the human equation.." ========================= True. Oddly, you and Gary are saying the same things about people. (more below, of course) Gary said; ========================= "There is nothing wrong with my logic. You cannot argue with the numbers. ... I agree with what you said about Amway. It is never going to go out of business - so long as there is a "swirling mass" of people right at the very bottom of the pyramid who are sold on the emotion of the dream..." ========================= It's a known fact that people make decisions based on emotion and justify with logic - and never the other way around. Marketers use that to sell products and services - and program owners use that to recruit. So we agree. Heh David also said; ========================= "I am not defending AmWay, MLMs, the Paypal Randomizer or any other program specifically. I just feel you are putting a spin on your own reasoning just as you feel those you are opposed to are doing. ..." ========================= It's what we all do, really. What we perceive is what we believe - so for each of us humans walking the earth, perception is reality. The hardest thing on earth to be is objective. To truly be that, we must have no emotion. But - even saying that - I would be the first to stand up and defend the MLM business model. Not every company using it, and certainly not the paypal randomizer, but the business model of MLM itself is sound. Long before Amway or any of those companies existed, there was a business structure that was based on the money flowing upward from the retailer to the manufacturer with each level in between getting their cut. The grower grows the oranges. The distributor buys them and sells them to the retailer. The retailer sells them to the customer. Basic business, with each leve in a multi level distribution system getting their share. The first MLM companies were a takeoff of that business model - with a twist. The twist was to recruit sales people. It made sense that if they had 100 middlemen hitting up buyers and were doing "x" dollars per month, recruiting more sales people would increase the money coming in. In the beginning, the structure of MLM was designed and intended to take a manufacturer's products to the consumer in volume and quickly. And THAT is a very sound and sensible business model. It didn't take long for people with lower ethics to realize that they could make a lot of money fast by selling sample cases and sample products to people by dangling a business opportunity in front of their noses. The product didn't really reach the consumer so much as it reached money hungry "sellers" who then went to work building a downline the same way. Dangle the carrot and promise the dream. But really - is there ANY industry that doesn't have more than it's share of poor ethics? I can't think of any, and MLM is no different. The concept itself, though, is very strong. If there was a product that was so dynamic and SO good that everyone wanted the product and the downline was of secondary importance, what potential that product would have!! Sadly, too many MLM companies focus on the recruiting instead of the product. Why? Usually because their products are mediocre at best and overpriced at worst. That's why so many ex-Amway people still have shampoo in the basement. When people say they hate MLM I truly believe they are protesting the ethically questionable ones they have been exposed to, not the business concept itself. And perhaps, once they realize that, they can start scrutinizing what *is* and *is not* a viable concept with just a wee bit more objectivity. Which, as we know, is hard to come by simply because we are human. lol : ) Linda

Hi Arild and David and others following this thread... No problem Arild. But I'm not "fighting," I'm just putting an alternate point of view. David, I agree with much of what you said too. Most structures are pyramidal. They have to be. Let's take the army... 5 Generals 10 Colonels 25 Majors 100 Captains 250 Sergeants 1000 Corporals 10000 Privates Specific to this thread - the Randomizer - the ones that start it are the Generals. The Privates are the ones who keep injecting the $5. In a war who has the greater chance of being killed or wounded? The Generals? Uh-uh! It's the foot sloggers. Same with these schemes. Rank is very important. Yes, any business can fail. Yes, there have to be consumers for businesses to exist. Just to explain... the term "you guys" is just that - a term. Nothing offensive at all - a euphemism. I didn't feel as though anybody was trying to recruit anybody here. It's just a discussion, that's all. I'm more than happy for anybody to put an alternate point of view. It makes the forum interesting. Gary Simpson

Thank you Gary for the kind words, Truth be known I am more in your camp than you may know. I have had many years in the MLM industry. I do not actively promote any of them although I am still part of several. I agree with you, the ones at the bottom bear the burden in any "pyramid" structure. You of coursed have written well. I like Arild enjoyed it. I understood what you wrote well. I would not say we were "fighting" Thank you for the stimulating discussion.

Hi Arild; You said; ================================== To earn money You most use money, and to get to the money You most use more money and work for it. Ask me who works 16-20 hours a day - I would NOT done it if there was`nt for my obligation to my teams and friends - and if I did not earn money. ================================== A few weeks ago, I had the pleasure of spending about an hour on the phone with one of the directors of a very large MLM company. One of the biggest in North America. It was a very enjoyable conversation. This man makes a six figure income. So, I asked him how many hours a day he works. He said usually about 6 hours. His income does not come from the hours he works. His income comes from two places; 1) smart money management so that his money works for him so he does not have to. and 2) Because of people that work 16 hours a day to sell products for the company that he is in the upper levels of. People who are truly wealthy understand one very important concept. It is this; I must learn to make money work for me, or I will always be working for money. One of my best clients used to be an Amway Double Diamond. He has shared speaking podiums with celebrities and American presidents and is in the American Who's Who of Business. He has always said that from the moment he joined, he realized that the way to make any money was to figure out how to climb up the ladder in the organization so that he was at the top, where the money is, becuase there is no money at the bottom. Very true words from someone that's done it. : ) Linda P.S. Please also understand that this is just "conversation" so we can all learn from each other, not argument. I have found that some people at Adland (and other places) get offended far too easily when I am trying to have a conversation, so I just wanted to assure you that I am "talking" not "arguing".

Well stated Linda, well stated. I agree. The unethical in any industry sour the pot. I believe this is why we also object to hype so much. Hype is designed to get us to believe in our dreams enough to ignore the warnings our objectivity is giving us. Unfortunately many MLMs start out good, the turn bad or crash and burn. If you really knew the numbers on how many start vs. how many survive, well you probably know. It is shocking. 1000s fail every year. The top 0.03% Gary spoke of not industry average. It is more like 3% which is closer to what it is for any business category. Perhaps Linda you could tell us this. What industry has the highest percentage of successful wealthy members. It would be nice to know of one that has even 10%. I doubt it exists though. Great forum Linda, May the truth prevail. I only want the truth.