Hi Jenny, I must agree with you that any government that fires its employees for expressing their political views is behaving in a most undemocratic way. Thankfully it is not the norm here in North America, but sadly, it has happened and will likely happen in the future unless the rules change. As a philatelist, I well remember the days when Spain was not a democracy and my elation when it became one. (I have many stamps with the picture of Franco.) It is interesting that North America and the UK at one time had much good to teach the world about the benefits of democracy. It seems that now we may have plenty to learn from democratic European nations. It is my opinion that democratic nations working together can both learn from one another and teach one another. As a whole, through healthy debate and an open mind, we always have the ability to improve the way we do things. God bless, Dave

Our problem seems to be that we elect men or women - and expect them to act like Gods - yet we adopt Gods and expect them to be like men.

Politicians are people - surprisingly.  Like the rest of the us they are ambitious, lazy, aggressive, cowardly, greedy, moral and immoral, warmhearted, cold-hearted, ignorant, intelligent etc., etc.

IF we feel so strongly against any of them, then in democracies at least we have two options - 1) to periodically have the opportunity to kick them out and 2) stand against them ourselves.  Granted the latter is no easy matter where unlimited funding tends to distort the democratic funding (note the small 'd')

Remember that as a previous poster has mentioned - power corrupts and total power corrupts totally.  I tend to prefer the other one which says 'people enter politics for power and/or money'.  Power is probably the one we need to worry about, and I read somewhere that to become President of the United States will cost millions to achieve - and the salary is that of a Rookie NBA Player.

If this is true - and I have no way of confirming it, how can any of us be surprised if we get power mania of any President?

Finally Neil, I am sure your comment addressed to me was in haste and in temper, as all the elements you refer to would constitute areas of debate. In debate I have found that where my ignorance is exposed - and recently it was in an English newspaper, I put my hands up and acknowledged the fact.

I do NOT believe that I have all knowledge and never have - BUT I do claim some Middle East experience, and I DO know a little about Iran, being close by in the Gulf, when the Shah was overthrown. 

I DO claim some experience of the Middle Eastern mind having worked in the region for about three years, and I DO claim some knowledge of how they react to America as I handled the American Express direct marketing business there for most of that time. You will have to read my book for more details (Brothels, beans & in-betweens - or 50 years an International ad-man) on that and other areas of the world where I can claim the same.

One of the joys of being such an Ad-man is that in order to be effective one has to learn the mindset of the host country.  Often this means setting aside one's own pre-judged versions and bias, and try to learn how to communicate with the locals.  One thing I never found to be effective was to abuse, denigrate, insult or shout at them.  Funny that isn't it?

I like to think I am still learning, but it doesn't stop me also having some positions on some matters.  Debate and persuasion are the factors that provide both information and knowledge.  At this moment internationally we are into Propaganda (and I have produced a double illustrated CD set on this subject for anyone who is interested - along with other subjects). We used to call this the Dark Side of Advertising - but that is another subject - or is it?

Norm

http://career-training-on-cd.com

Dave, Thank you for your honesty. ------------------ Tina, 1. There are ZILLIONS and ZILLIONS of things I have NO clue about. There are a few things I do have a lot more than any mere clue about and Iraq is one of them. (So is World, American history and current events.) Those who think they know everything only prove they know VERY, VERY little. The more any rational person knows, the more they realize how little they know. 2. It is a SCIENTIFIC FACT, confirmed by BRIAN SCANS, TEENAGE BRAINS do NOT USE LOGIC as a primary source of thought. THAT IS SCIENTIFIC FACT! 3. The facts are that if two people are born with the SAME level of intelligence and the SAME desire to learn, the one born even ONE day before the other is ALWAYS GOING TO KNOW MORE than the one born one day later! I very much doubt you are smarter than I or you have a stronger desire to learn than I do. As I was born in Dec. of 1934 I have been learning a LOT longer than you have. So guess who knows more? 4. Next, You SAY: "I do not subscribe to be either of the left or the right. I am non-partisan. I vote based on my beliefs and the information I gather." ONLY YOUR WORDS PROVE you are either NOT telling the truth OR you are just really BS' ing yourself. Go back and read what you said about Clinton, Carter, Reagan and Bush. And tell me you are not on one side or the other. HERE IS SOME OF IT "Regan manipulated his way into the White House. Trading arms for hostages." THAT IS TOTAL BULL CRAP AS HE WAS ELECTED MONTHS BEFORE HOSTAGES WERE RELEASED! (AND BEFORE ANYONE IN THE PUBLIC KNEW THEY WOULD BE RELEASED!) "I remember that well. I was in high school at the time, and did several papers on the subject for my political science class." THEN YOUR RESEARCH TOTALLY SUCKED! (And not in a good way!) "Carter was set up to fail so that Regan would look like a hero. Another political agenda" That is just MORE TOTAL BULL CRAP! What? Reagan caused the Russians to invade Afghanistan and the Iranians to take our people hostages? GIVE ME A BREAK! Carter's OWN actions are what caused him to be defeated in the election. Try doing some research. Your statements about Carter and Reagan are absolutely asinine! They are so totally out of touch with reality, maybe you were going to high school on Mars! I am neither on the right or on the left as I hold views which are based on knowledge, logic and PROOF!, NOT on dogma. So some are considered to be liberal positions and others, conservative. HERE ARE A FEW: EVOLUTION IS BOTH A PROVEN THEORY AND A FACT As any truly educated and non- Christian religiously programmed person knows. MOST Christians agree Evolution is both a proven theory and a proven fact! The ONLY ONES I know of who strongly disagree are the Christian programmed religious robots of the Far Right who choose to deny facts. IT IS A SCIENTIFIC FACT HOMOSEXUALS ARE BORN THAT WAY! As are other mammals, animals, birds, insects & fish. Do people really think insects choose to live an alterative life style? GET REAL! Homosexuals should be, as they already are in MANY countries, be allowed to openly serve in our military services. And guess who is against that? Why is is the same programmed religious robots who do not let little things like facts bother them! STEM CELL RESEARCH IS NEEDED AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT! And guess who is against that? Why is is the same programmed religious robots! I DARE ANYONE TO GIVE ME ONE LOGICAL RATIONAL AND INTELLIGENT REASON WHY A HUMAN HAS MORE RIGHT TO LIFE THAN DOES ANY OTHER LIVING THING! (Religious reasons are NOT logical or rational or that intelligent.) GUN CONTROL DOES NOT WORK IF it worked, then nearly ALL states would not have right to carry laws and they would have more gun crime, by the percent of population, than the states & cities with strict gun control laws. Who is against that? The illogical, irrational members of the LOONY LEFT who deny facts! THE DEATH PENALTY IS CIVILIZED. And who is against that? The same illogical, irrational members of the LOONY LEFT who deny facts and flunk logic! THE DRUG WAR IS STUPID! (We should be treating people & taking other steps I am not going it to now.) MARIJUANA SHOULD BE LEGAL! Who is against that? People who are either too lazy or too stupid and/or both, to do sufficient research on the subject as I have. Pot has been studied for OVER 450 YEARS by others and by over 40 years by me. There is NO intelligent, logical or rational reason it should be remain illegal. (And there were none to make illegal in the first place.) Various counties have de-criminalized it and we should. EVERY YEAR, 900 people die from aspirins, hundreds of thousands die from cigarettes, hundreds of thousands more from errors made in hospitals and by doctors. NO one, in the history of the world, has ever died as a DIRECT result of smoking, and/or eating pot. PEOPLE OVER 18 SHOULD BE ABLE TO MARRY WHO EVER THE HELL THEY WANT. Guess who's against that? Why is is the same programmed Christian religious robots of the Far Right! NO RELIGION (Moslem, Christian or what ever) HAS THE RIGHT TO TELL PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT MEMBERS OF THAT RELIGION HOW TO LIVE. OR TO KILL OTHERS WHO DO NOT BELIEVE AS THEY DO. (Like the Bible tells it's readers to do) I voted of Clinton Twice (2) and would again. I voted for Reagan Four (4) times and would vote for him again. I voted for Bush once because I would NEVER vote for a back-stabbing, double- dealing, gold digging, flip-flopping, lying, elitist traitor like John Kerry! Bush, as any open-minded, intelligent, rational and informed person knows, is RIGHT about Iraq. I USED to Hate Bush. Only once I started to give him a fair shake, I have found I was wrong about him. He is a LOT smarter than I first thought and is trying to do the right thing. I still hate his pushing his religion on us and spending tax dollars in support of his religion. It is totally wrong! Tina, because you talk to Congress people or whomever is of NO consequence as it has NOTHING to do with the subject. (Based on that, and other things you've said, I suggest you buy, read, study and keep for your reference, a book by Professor L. Ruby entitled, "The Art of Making Sense, A Guide to Logical Thinking.) You said: "We have not made any progress in Iraq; people are still being killed daily, and we are no closer to getting out of there than we were the day we landed on their soil" So Tina, tell me all about ALL of YOUR military experience & YOUR knowledge of Iraq which qualifies you to make these statements. (Your statments prove your knowledge of Iraq is really, really lacking.) I have read about and/or studied the military & war since 1942. I've served for over 6 years in the Active reserves (National Guard/Army reserve) & over 3 years on active duly. Most of which was while being a paratrooper in the 101st Airborne Div. I have been paying attention to the Middle East for over 45 years and to Iraq for over 30 years. Now let's look at some of your asinine statements: "We have not made any progress in Iraq" THAT STATEMENT FACTUALLY WRONG AND IT SHOWS YOU HAVE LITTLE, TO NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE FACTS! "people are still being killed daily", Yes, there are innocent people being killed in IRAQ every day and they are mostly the RESULTS OF TERRORIST ACTS. (others in accidents and due to crime) Even with ALL the deaths in Iraq, the FACTS are, LESS INNOCENT Iraqi's have been killed during the war than would have been killed by Saddam's regime in the SAME time frame. And not only were innocent people being killed, they were being beaten, raped, imprisoned and tortured EVERY day by Saddam's regime. Did you know Saddam had a special prison set up JUST to imprison, beat, rape, torture & murder CHILDREN? (Age 12 and under) One of the children in this prison was ONLY 2 years old when she was tortured! (That prison was shut down by United States Marines from Camp Pendelton, Ca.) Next you said: "we are no closer to getting out of there than we were the day we landed on their soil' What a very asinine and totally stupid statement that is. Just another "Tina" statement proving how much you do NOT KNOW! Tina, you say how smart you are and how much you like to learn. Yet, you continue to make statement after statement after statment which are FACTUALLY FALSE! ---------------- Will reply to others later.

First of all, my name is NOT Tina. It is Trina.

Second of all, if teenage brains do not think logically, then how the hell did you get through high school? Or, where you brought into this world as an adult? Tell me how my son, a high school junior, can be getting A's in calculus? Is not mathematics an exercise in logic? Sure, teens are running around with raging hormones, and they do do stupid things, but they are not incapable of logical thought.

I've never said that I am more intelligent than you are. I merely stated that I am highly intelligent, and as a teenager, mature in my thought processes. I did not get where I am today by being stupid.

I am non-partisan. I vote based on information, not based on political affiliation. I did not vote for Bush or Kerry. The way I see it, there was no lesser of two evils there.

No, I am not a military tactician. I wouldn't want to be.

I am well aware of how evil Sadaam is. There is no doubt in my mind. I fully supported his being wrenched from power. I thought it was long over due. Personally I think that considering the nature of his evil, he should not get a trial, but should be drawn and quartered in front of the people he terrorized. But, that's just me.

Yes, I realize that Reagan did do many positive things while in office. No question. However, he and his cronies, manipulated his way into office. Deals were made behind the scenes, to make Carter look like a fool. Carter lost the election, and low and behold... Reagan came out a hero, doing something Carter would not... Trading arms for hostages. They took advantage of the hostage situation, I did not say that he orchestrated it.

Have you ever listened to GWB speak? He is a buffoon! Perhaps he should hire a better speech writer. No matter what you say, you will never convince me that GWB is the right man for the job.

His No Child Left Behind is another BIG FLOP. I live in a community that is very small. What his policy has done is to funnel money to larger school districts, where there is already an adequate tax base to support the schools, and has abandoned small districts like my own, where the tax base is not adequate to support the schools. Rural school districts have been left out in the cold due to his policy. So, there are thousands of children being left behind.

In our district, the top salary for teachers is $24,000/yr. Our teachers spend hundreds of dollars every year, out of their own pockets, just to make sure that their classrooms have the materials needed to teach. Why? Because we have a budget based upon enrollment numbers, not need. Who is to blame for that? GWB.

This forum is about whether or not Clinton is responsible for 911. He is not. That is clear. So let's stop this pissing match about GWB and the rest of the mistakes made by past administrations. Obviously, all you care about is being right and having the last word.

Trina

REALITY IS 100% PERCEPTION.

Neil,

No two people are capable of perceiving the same thing in exactly the same way; therefore,  your reality will never be the same as the next guy's. Get used to it. That is why we have what is known as an opinion. Everyone has the choice as to whether or not they will accept someone elses perception, but they will neer actually see it for themselves. That is, of course, unless they've learned the secret of the Vulcan mind meld.

You perceive the world differently than I do. However, that does not make you right and me wrong. It makes us of opposing opinions.

Do you think that Sadaam perceived his atrosities as wrong? I highly doubt it. Do you think GWB perceives his actions as wrong? No way. Their perception of reality dictates their actions, just as your perception of reality dictates yours. The only difference is that no one is suffering because of your perceptions.

Trina