Hi Leonard, Yes, the 9-11 tragedy did more to unite Americans than any amount of politicking and scaremongering could ever do. One of the things that makes the US great is the fact that its citizens pull together so strongly in the face of adversity. What is now so sad and even sickening about that fact is that we have the conspiracy theorists once again raising their ugly heads with accusations of the event being a "Made-in-the-USA" tragedy orchestrated by the government to garner support for war. That is absolutely as disgusting and unpatriotic as anyone could possibly get. The day that a government in the free world would blow up thousands of its own citizens for political gain is the day that democracy as we know it comes to a bitter end. God bless, Dave

Hi Dave,

Well it is refreshing to see a political debate at Adland where both "sides" are allowed to get a word in edgeways and it has been full of surprises.

However, there is one thing I do not understand about the politics of the US which is supposed to be a modern democracy.  Your presidents are voted for by the majority of the people in the United States -  they are not appointed by some higher power.  (This is quite apart from any discussion on the transparancy of the US electoral system!)    America is supposed to be a democratic country,  but it seems to me that once a President is elected - he then seems to acquire an aura of "invincibility" and then  it is considered un- american to suggest that this same elected politician has the same obligation to represent the electorate after as well as before his election campaign is won.

The "removal" of Bill Clinton over a  sexual indiscretion was considered a bad joke outside the States - so he lied - most unfaithful husbands tend to do this, but we did not see what on earth this had to do with his ability to lead a country in the field of international politics.  He got caught - but he suffered a political "assasination over it.  Whatever my personal feelings about infidelity in marriage - my priority in choosing a political leader is whether or not he will defend the interests of my country at home and abroad.  Bill Clinton was generally respected as a very competant modern  international politician and considered to be a great deal closer to his electorate than some of the other presidents that have represented the US.

George Bush, sadly, does not share the same international respect of his predecessor.  This same gentleman has also had his share of immorality in his life - brushes with drugs, alcohol and dangerous driving - also at an age when he was old enough to know better.  But so what.  What matters is how a President represents his country when he is in office.  The dirt raking so popular in the States, has very little to do with a politicians competance to lead on political issues. 

What is harshly judged in Europe is his competance in international affairs.  In his election programme, the first time round,George Bush Jr.  went on record to say that international politics were not his field of expertise and that he would follow the advice of his advisors.  I wish I could find the source of the newpaper quotation, but it was now  nearly 8 years ago.  I remember being flabergasted that anyone standing for election as President of the United States could treat the subject so lightly.

I hear that you all consider the English BBC World Service as "pinkos" which would be amusing if it was not so sad - The BBC in Europe stands for the very measured centre right of that country broadcasting!  To consider it left wing sounds not only incorrect, but seriously paranoic.

Many Americans appear to consider that Europe is made up of a lot of small underdeveloped countries.  But I can assure you that in politics, there is a far more real concept of democracy than we are witnessing in the United States in 2006.  When we dont like what our politicians do - we tell them, we demonstrate, we write about it.  In the majority of European Countries we do not lose our jobs because of our political views. 

.Not much I can add, except to say that it is time that the American electorate started to wake up and feel more free to criticise their politicians without fear of reprisal.   We vote for these people - they are meant to work for US.  That is democracy.

Saludos
Jenny

Hi Jenny, First of all, I would like to let you know that I am not from the US, although I consider the US to be a close friend to my country, Canada. The US democratic system is quite different from the system in Canada. In Canada, the party who wins the most seats in a general election is the one who forms the government. The leader of that party becomes the Prime Minister. As in our present situation, it is not necessary to have more than 50% of the seats in our parliament to form the government. As such, we can have a minority government, as we now do, where policy cannot simply be rammed through, as each bill before parliament requires at least 51% to pass. In the US, as I understand it, if there is not a clear winner in an election, there must be another vote between the front runners until there is a clear winner (at least 51%). The president is considered elected when his party gains a simple majority of the seats in Congress. His party must have a majority in Congress, but can have a minority in the Senate, which is presently the case in the US. The President has very great executive powers, including the right to veto any bill passed, but must also answer for his own actions, as has been proven both with Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton. In other words, one cannot simply blame the president for the actions of any administration. In both Canada and the US, the right to protest is honoured and protected, although in both countries there is a risk of losing your job if you work for the federal government and openly oppose its policies. Both governments take the stance that if you openly oppose any employer, including the federal government, your employer has the right to dismiss you. Regarding the BBC - here in Canada, most people consider it to be a reliable news source, although my personal thinking is that it is dangerous to believe that no bias is present in any news source; after all, reporters and managers are people with opinions, too. God bless, Dave

Dear Norm I care LESS about "debate" I care about FACTS, LOGIC, KNOWLEDGE HONESTY, ACCURACY AND TRUTHFULLNESS! Neil

Hi David,

Thanks for your very clear explanation of the US electoral system.   I was aware that you ar Canadian, but  as  your forum relates to US  Presidents, my reply  also relates to the events in the US . I apologise if you thought that I was writing to you as an American citizen.

However, what I wished to comment on, and clearly explained myself very badly, were the attitudes that I perceive coming from America and some of its citizens in relation to their elected representatives, which is not consistent with what I have always experienced living in a democracy in the UK and to a certain extent in Spain. I was not referring to the electoral system in itself.  They all vary, but the principals of democracy remain the same. 

( I dont consider there is genuine freedom of speech if one stands to get kicked out of a job for holding political opinion).

In fact  in the UK I lived in even public employees have been known to join political campaigns without losing their jobs - so long as they do it in their free time.  I consider this to be genuine poilitical freedom.  It is emerging here in Spain too.  In the more democratic Town Halls,(and remember we have only been a democracy for less than 30 years)   employees are not expected to toe  the current ruling party line, so long as they do their jobs properly and this is fast becoming common practice.
Town Halls who kick out employees who supported the previous administration are considered anti democratic.

That's it for now folks - it's nightime here.
And David, I am enjoying this forum greatly.  It is refreshing to see a debate in which everyone is permitted to post and in which everyone is showing some good forum manners.

Saludos

Jenny






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