Hi Greer: I'm going to reply to part of your post first. Otherwise I could end up writing a book. ; ) ========================================= I think it's fair to say that ALL of them have an element of ponzi to them, by their very design. ========================================= Ponzi schemes and pyramids are illegal. How does a program have an "element of" being illegal? That's like saying "well it's kind of legal and kind of illegal." Huh? Either something is legal, or it is not. I got my definition of ponzi and pyramid from the USA Securities Exchange site. From what I've read, many of these autosurf programs fit right into the government description of pyramid. But then, maybe you have details about them that I don't. In that case, please do enlighten me. You don't know me well being new to my forums - but anyone else can assure you I am not a naysayer, but a fact finder. Just ask John - we saved 106 paypal accounts from possible shutdown here - which paypal confirmed. (you can find that in the paypal randomizer thread) So - if you have facts that I don't have - please do share them. : ) ========================================= However, people that state or imply that all autosurf programs are 100% Ponzi just haven't done their homework or perhaps never took the dive and EXPERIENCED this mode of making money on line. It really irks me when I hear people making moralistic assertions who can't even cite one experience. You can only talk about what you know. ========================================= You can only talk about what you know? That's silly. My doctor has delivered thousands of babies and has never been pregnant. Is a woman doctor better because she can get pregnant? Nope. The only difference is that she can "experience" the pain of labour and delivery. Does it mean a male doctor can't do a delivery as well? Hardly. What about clerks selling shoes they've never worn? Or books they've never read? While it's true that you can only talk about what you know, you don't always have to experience it to know it. Studying and reading often suffice. Just ask a doctor. : ) Linda

Hi Linda, Well, you have me in an apparent self contradiction there, for sure!! i'll try to clarify my thinking on this. It's kind of like doing public math though. Personally I think that there is "an element of Ponzi" in just about ALL downline schemes, and I'm not limiting that to autosurf either. Is that to say that all of them are illegal or bad? No, I'm just referring to the principle of what you might call "recruiting inertia" -- geometric growth. Ponzi, as defined by the FTC is clearly ILLEGAL, that is, when perpetrated as a scam with intent to deceive and defraud -- that's what I believe the FTC is talking about. Still, in my opinion, there is an element of "Ponzi" in ALL downlines -- not the illegal Ponzi you have in mind, from the FTC coined term, but the underlying premise. The law is ALWAYS based on the "reasonable man" concept -- I'm not a lawyer, but I've had my share of business law courses. So, I think the problem is that I slice the cheese a little bit finer than most people who haven't tried to directly look at some of these programs. I took the time tonight to read a couple of the threads you've mentioned, and there is some great info there. I like your statement that you're a fact finder -- I can respect that approach, for sure. You mention the FTC sites and articles -- good stuff there, and authoritative -- but the question is, why haven't they busted every downline out there? they all pretty much work off of the inertia principle, like the Ponzi deception is based on. well, deception is the key word there -- they (the FTC) give some great info, and that's what you have to build your filter on their rhetoric to stay away from the scams out there. Here is an example of what I'm talking about. Here is an edited excerpt I got from a an online autosurf related forum. I edited out personally identifying info, except the IP address. ---------------------- Hello Everyone, Here are most of this scumbags sites here, he runs them takes members money then sells them, I have him listed as Hosting to over 174 sites, here are most of the ones I have:Advanced View of 72.36.197.162 174 domains found on 72.36.197.162 Showing all 174. ----------------------- The IP address you see has reportedly been used by an individual who runs a very comprehensive hosting service and sells all manner of online scripts. I tested this individual by purchasing a script from him, and when I paid, there was no download link!! So I had to go through Pay Pal to get my software. By the way, the payment processor, is the point of leverage when you're having problems with an online vendor -- the payment processors are the life blood of most online businesses, and they can afford to have the payment processor freeze or ban their account. I have found other posts on other forums that accuse this individual of many of the DDOS attacks that occur to the autosurfs. This individual fits the pattern of the classic autosurf scammer -- they set up an autosurf, run it for about 90 to 120 days and then develop technical or money problems and shut down leaving their members in a lurch. This is the kind of individual that the FTC is after -- a real crook. Should we throw out the baby with the bath water and reject ALL autosurfs? Well, that's what I'm interested to know. I have discovered a new trend of autosurf admins that appear to be trying to generate legitimate sustainable businesses, based on FOREX and other speculative investments. If so, then there may be a new niche for a specialized auditing and validating service -- credibility is so desperately needed, I think there may be a new opportunity developing. It all hinges on if the transition from mostly flaky scams to mostly legitimate business operations can happen on a collective basis. I certainly see a trend, an attempt, but it is premature to say if it will endure. Well, I've said enough, but that should give you an idea of my thought process. I think I'm going to let you have the last word, and refrain form posting any more on this topic, but I want to say thanks to you Linda, for doing all these great educational threads. Referring to your FTC links served to refresh my memory banks on their articles.

Hi Linda, Well, you have me in an apparent self contradiction there, for sure!! i'll try to clarify my thinking on this. It's kind of like doing public math though. Personally I think that there is "an element of Ponzi" in just about ALL downline schemes, and I'm not limiting that to autosurf either. Is that to say that all of them are illegal or bad? No, I'm just referring to the principle of what you might call "recruiting inertia" -- geometric growth. Ponzi, as defined by the FTC is clearly ILLEGAL, that is, when perpetrated as a scam with intent to deceive and defraud -- that's what I believe the FTC is talking about. Still, in my opinion, there is an element of "Ponzi" in ALL downlines -- not the illegal Ponzi you have in mind, from the FTC coined term, but the underlying premise. The law is ALWAYS based on the "reasonable man" concept -- I'm not a lawyer, but I've had my share of business law courses. So, I think the problem is that I slice the cheese a little bit finer than most people who haven't tried to directly look at some of these programs. I took the time tonight to read a couple of the threads you've mentioned, and there is some great info there. I like your statement that you're a fact finder -- I can respect that approach, for sure. You mention the FTC sites and articles -- good stuff there, and authoritative -- but the question is, why haven't they busted every downline out there? they all pretty much work off of the inertia principle, like the Ponzi deception is based on. well, deception is the key word there -- they (the FTC) give some great info, and that's what you have to build your filter on their rhetoric to stay away from the scams out there. Here is an example of what I'm talking about. Here is an edited excerpt I got from a an online autosurf related forum. I edited out personally identifying info, except the IP address. ---------------------- Hello Everyone, Here are most of this scumbags sites here, he runs them takes members money then sells them, I have him listed as Hosting to over 174 sites, here are most of the ones I have:Advanced View of 72.36.197.162 174 domains found on 72.36.197.162 Showing all 174. ----------------------- The IP address you see has reportedly been used by an individual who runs a very comprehensive hosting service and sells all manner of online scripts. I tested this individual by purchasing a script from him, and when I paid, there was no download link!! So I had to go through Pay Pal to get my software. By the way, the payment processor, is the point of leverage when you're having problems with an online vendor -- the payment processors are the life blood of most online businesses, and they can't afford to have the payment processor freeze or ban their account. I have found other posts on other forums that accuse this individual of many of the DDOS attacks that occur to the autosurfs. This individual fits the pattern of the classic autosurf scammer -- they set up an autosurf, run it for about 90 to 120 days and then develop technical or money problems and shut down leaving their members in a lurch. This is the kind of individual that the FTC is after -- a real crook. Should we throw out the baby with the bath water and reject ALL autosurfs? Well, that's what I'm interested to know. I have discovered a new trend of autosurf admins that appear to be trying to generate legitimate sustainable businesses, based on FOREX and other speculative investments. If so, then there may be a new niche for a specialized auditing and validating service -- credibility is so desperately needed, I think there may be a new opportunity developing. It all hinges on if the transition from mostly flaky scams to mostly legitimate business operations can happen on a collective basis. I certainly see a trend, an attempt, but it is premature to say if it will endure. Well, I've said enough, but that should give you an idea of my thought process. I don't think I'll be posting any more on this topic. I think those of us who posted our experiences expected more of an objective discussion than we encountered.

Hi Greer: First of all, what a great conversation.... so thank you. It's kind of like doing public math though. LOL. (public math? eek. where's my calculator???) Ponzi, as defined by the FTC is clearly ILLEGAL, that is, when perpetrated as a scam with intent to deceive and defraud -- that's what I believe the FTC is talking about. Still, in my opinion, there is an element of "Ponzi" in ALL downlines Oh - I completely agree!! That's why people have such a hard time figuring out what's legit and what's not. If it was clearly defined, the FTC wouldn't have an entire task force trying to battle the fuzzy lines. I took the time tonight to read a couple of the threads you've mentioned, and there is some great info there. I like your statement that you're a fact finder -- I can respect that approach, for sure. Thank you. (x2) Should we throw out the baby with the bath water and reject ALL autosurfs? Well, that's what I'm interested to know. Well - that's a good question. And really, that's what these threads are all about. Trying to find out whether there's good and bad... or all bad. credibility is so desperately needed, I think there may be a new opportunity developing ... (snipped)... but I want to say thanks to you Linda, for doing all these great educational threads I agree with you completely. Credibility is such a HUGE issue online. I'm of the mind that if I can help people make good choices or help them learn what's a bad choice - that's a decent contribution to make. And - you're welcome. : ) Linda

Hi again Linda -- looks like I was talking to myslef there -- two posts and all -- sorry, had tech prolblems -- well, let me correct myself, that's a fraudulent statement there, the turth is I just messed up!! Here's a link i meant to post and just forgot. Maybe you already have if so, sorry to be redundant. Thsi is where I refer apparent scams to. http://www.ifccfbi.gov/index.asp Abgain congratualtions on doing a superb job with your forums.