Hi Jack! ==================================== Glad to see you back. I missed you. ==================================== Well thank you. How nice of you to say that. : ) ==================================== being an investor I always enjoy the thrill of making a profit. So I looked closer at how 12DailyPro could possibly payout the high returns that are promoted and since they claim they are not a High Yield Investment Program then logic points to using upgrade fees from members to cover the payments to members. ==================================== Which, in itself, is the definition of a pyramid. I find it rather ironic that the investigation team called each company that was at risk of account freeze and said "show us where your profit comes from to prove you are not a pyramid." All the companies who were frozen either could not or would not provide proof of how they make their profit. Again, simple math. Two plus two. ==================================== If people could take a little more time to avoid the hype and get to know the business that they support they would realize there are much safer and established methods to make all the money they need. ==================================== This is very true. However, the stumbling block for many people is that "other" methods have a learning curve. As Brian pointed out in a further post, it is possible to make that kind of profit with investments.... but, of course, there is a learning curve. Many of the people that lost money with 12DP and the others that went down don't know how to do a household budget, much less understand investing. Hence the appeal of "quick riches." What they fail to see is that they are easy pickings for every such risk that comes along because they refuse to educate themselves. It's classic "group 1" mindset from my "What the Bleep?" thread. : ) Linda

Hi Bryan; What a great post... I do enjoy intelligent conversation *about* an issue as opposed to the many that howl and point fingers without first educating themselves. ==================================== Now do not get mad at my comments, I am also trying to make money on the Internet with an online business, and just trying to give you some points to ponder:-) ==================================== Get mad? Not a chance. I strive to make my forum a place where people can discuss issues and learn without ever fearing anger, getting insulted, attacked, ridiculed or having negative repercussion to simple conversation. : ) ==================================== Now lets take a bank!! You put your money in and they give you 2.5% on your investment. Now what do they do with the money?? They loan it out at a higher percentage rate, and make money. ==================================== Very correct. That's how they make their profit. (more below) ==================================== In September I invested $75,000.00. In 5 months it has increased to $119,790.00. That works out to $8598.00 per month, $298.60 per day. ..... Good investment??? Legal??? Yes on both counts!! I invested in one companies stock and it has increased by that much. Banks and investment firms are doing this on a daily basis, making millions of dollars per day. ==================================== Wow. Great stock choice. So are you going to tell us what stock? (lol) And you are right... banks and investment firms do that on a daily basis. So do individuals - just like you did. But the point is - is that what 12DP and 4Dp and the others that were shut down did? Or did they operate in pyramid style, using money from members to pay members. ==================================== We will have to wait and see how they rule on 12dailypro!! ==================================== Exactly. And on Stormpay, too, because when they saw how much money autosurfs were making, they started their own autosurf called StormClix. StormClix is under investigation along with 12DP and the rest. One thing that I come back to repeatedly is that when the law enforcement agents swooped in to investigate, each merchant that was at risk got a phone call. The phone call said if they can prove how they make their profit, and prove they are not a pyramid, they will not be shut down. But yes - you are right. Time will tell how the ruling goes. Thanks for a great post! With enough posts from people like you and Jack, maybe even a small number of members will start reading books about finance and learn "the right" way to make money quick - the way you did. : ) Linda

Hi Linda, You are quite right about the gambling aspect of PTS and all these other things (HYIPs, rotators, etc) that are popping up everywhere. They are all risky and the higher the promised return is, they higher the risk is. Right when the 12DailyPro craze began, I posted a thread predicting it and all others like it would crash. I have personally dabbled in them out of curiousity, and am amazed at the cries of "foul" I'm hearing now that they're in trouble. They were destined for death right from the outset. If anyone can provide me with concrete, accurate information on how a company like 12DailyPro can legitimately pay a whopping 44% return over a 12 day period, I'm all ears! (note that it is not really 12% per day return - it's the difference between the amount put in and the 'earnings' over the length of the upgrade). Also, I've been digging for information on any ongoing investigation of 12DailyPro or any other of these companies. I would appreciate an email with links if anyone has any information. So far the only suggestion of this has come from Stormpay. While I have not been able to find anything to prove conclusively that 12DailyPro is nothing more than a PONZI or PYRAMID (although it certainly appears that way so far), I have found enough evidence that Stormpay is not a payment processor I would ever choose. They have a very questionable reputation and have been involved in a PONZI themselves (Tymglobal). I find it highly unlikely that they were ignorant of the types of businesses they were acting as processors for when they took on all these PTS and HYIPs, and now they're trying to close the barn door after the horses have escaped. Linda, like you, I hope some people learn a very valuable lesson from their experience. However, I think it more than likely (sadly) that most won't. In nearly ten years online, I haven't seen the number of "get-rich-quick" schemes slow down at all; in fact they just keep increasing. This tells me that they still have massive appeal. Personally, I don't think you'll see this kind of thing slow down at all - just different versions. When you see Vegas appealing for government financial aid, you might see these slow down, too! ;-) God bless, Dave

Hi Dave; I always enjoy your posts. =========================================== Also, I've been digging for information on any ongoing investigation of 12DailyPro or any other of these companies. I would appreciate an email with links if anyone has any information. So far the only suggestion of this has come from Stormpay. =========================================== The only other link I have is the one to the ABC4 news article. I had to listen to it a couple of times to catch it all, but they mentioned that the Dean at BYU (Utah) reported it to authorities once he became aware that students were participating. That's what, apparently, started the entire collapse... =========================================== ...I have found enough evidence that Stormpay is not a payment processor I would ever choose. They have a very questionable reputation and have been involved in a PONZI themselves (Tymglobal). I find it highly unlikely that they were ignorant of the types of businesses they were acting as processors for .. =========================================== I'm completely in agreement there! Little analogy. Jed and Jeb come up with a scheme to bilk money out of poor people and little old ladies. For a while, it's going great. They're raking in the dough and laughing all the way to the bank. Suddenly, the run into the little old lady from hell. She reports Jed. Jed starts to howl and points the finger at Jeb. Fact is, they are both guilty. Same thing here, in my opinion. I don't believe for a minute that the processors *didn't know* what was going on. A Dean at a respectable college found out students were participating and felt that it "looked like a pyramid" so he reported it. And now, Jed and Jeb (Stormpay and the defunct programs) are pointing fingers at each other and howling. And, of course, all the people who lost money are just pointing at WHO froze the accounts instead of looking at WHO chose to join without doing due diligence before joining in a first place. =========================================== Personally, I don't think you'll see this kind of thing slow down at all - just different versions. When you see Vegas appealing for government financial aid, you might see these slow down, too! =========================================== Funny, but sad. As usual, you're quite right. : ) Linda

Hi everybody. Good sense is hard to find. It doesn't matter what we say or do. How much we warn people, the attraction of the quick buck and the "don't get left behind syndrome" will always lure people. A year ago it was doublers, than HYIP, autosurf is another variation. There's even a program called 24Daily - (Oh really?) For what its worth. I was a very small participant in 12DP with money I was prepared to lose - call it an investigative trial for my newsletter if you like. I went in with my eyes open and have no qualms about what happened/ is happening. I feel sorry for many people who have placed a lot of faith in 12DP and acknowledge that they had always paid on time. But it was high risk - that's a fact. Life goes on.