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Roger Macdivitt .

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RE: The World Commonality Organisation
11/9/2009 1:19:31 AM

Kathleen.

I enjoyed reading your point about professonal integrity and moral obligations and agree.

Others here have pointed out the failings of the United Nations and indeed nearly all international aid, defence and education movements. Politics, money and power corrupt. This is why I advocate an independant negotiating machine with a comittment to staying just that. No power, influence or agenda, just somewhere that all can seek answers.

Roger

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Peter Fogel

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RE: The World Commonality Organisation
11/9/2009 2:53:46 AM
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Peter,

I have had time to consider and formulate a reply. Then I threw out the reply. It has to come straight from me to the keyboard.

That you consider you have nothing in common with an extremist terrorist is not only understandable but I have to say "If I was living under the threat of rocket attack, aimed indiscriminately at me and anybody within it's range I would probably feel the same."

I have had the opportunity to speak to self-styled military murderers of the former Irish Republican Army and those on the opposing Loyalist force. Their was a mutual hatred which, like yourself, saw no common ground, no trust, no reason to deal with the murder motivated terrorist or state that they had been taught to hate through upbringing and observation.

However, when I put the same ten questions to each in separate places, both agreed completely with five points and agreed with different reasons to two more. I know that this would be similar in the case of yourself but I understand that it would be impossible to test in a face-to-face situation.

With the fundementalists, what I don't understand or know is the REAL aim of the individual who kills like this. Is there a purely selfish ideal that thinks that personal salvation is assured by doing God's will in killing infidels. Is theirs a conviction that their dream of a future Muslim world can only happen if all infidels are disposed of or subjugated? I don't know. I only see what I read.

There is a chunking up process used in phsychology and NLP which can be used to find common ground. ONLY when common ground is found can a settlement even be dreamed of. Things are VERY far from that at present.

I do not aim to get into a Muslim, Jewish, Christian etc etc discussion as I wish to establish a wider base for agreement between reasonable nations and individuals. I want to start from a position of sameness, I am a human being. I have certain needs, food,water, shelter etc. We have to start at that baby step point and then ask why. I need food. For what purpose? To grow and thrive. For what purpose? etc.

This way we find not only common ground but crossovers of belief.

Will it take generations? I can't answer that, but we need to start somewhere.

Many, not all, of the people cutting down virgin forest do so to survive but in turn threaten others just as directly as those with guns and many feel justified. Until we discover that we have to share and agree to share we will NEVER win.

I am not lecturing, even if it feels that way, but it is as my thought come that I write. I am not saying that I have all of the answers but I know that history shows me that their is only one way and that way is through commonality,

Spirituality has never been more closely related worldwide, yet, never further divided than it is today, but, I refuse to accept that war is the only way. However, defence is understandable.

Peter. I am so proud of you that you share wide friendships with those of other persuations and I'm not being patronising. That in itself says much for there are moderate voices in all religions and nations.

Please everyone, continue to pray, to meditate, to commune in whatever way is yours and ask that we can start to build a world where we celebrate diversity yet cherish commonality.

Roger



Roger,

Interesting reply and unfortunately in some cases based on either misconceptions or lack of knowledge on the subject. I'll just say that the baby steps you mention have been taken many a time and agreements have been signed and then not honored by the Palestinians. Baby steps and giant steps are still on the table but when the other side has an agenda no steps are ever going to be enough I'm afraid.

I recommend that you read the charters of the PLO/Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah and Muslim Brotherhood for a start and you'll find that their agenda is two fold. [BTW,according to the agreements and accords that the PLO/Fatah signed with Israel in the past they were supposed to change their charter but like all the other points in the agreement they weren't honored.]

1. The annihilation of Israel and all the Jews.

2. World domination and the death of all infidels (that includes you unless you're a closet Muslim :) ).

When you consider that I wonder if you'll find anything in common with them.Another suggestion would be to have a serious look at what's happening in England (and all of Europe for that matter) and consider if their goal isn't succeeding at an extremely fast pace.

No, I have nothing in common with them and I seriously doubt you have either. Interacting with individuals is a different story and is possible one on one. I'm not sure how my friends would react when it's not one on one (at least my Muslim friends).

Consider this. The day after the Jihadi terrorist attack in Fort Hood an extreme Muslim website wrote that Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan is "an officer and gentleman" for committing his terrorist attack but they called it a"preemptive attack". You can read about it here.

I have nothing in common with people like that and I'm confident that you haven't either.

I have nothing in common with the Iranian oppressive regime nor with any of the other countries with the worst human rights records in the world. Those same countries today in effect control the infamous UN.

Men of good will eventually find a solution to the conflict but I doubt it will be in my lifetime but I sincerely hope It'll be in my children's and grandchildren's lifetime.

Platitudes are beautiful but the usage of love and unconditional love is being bashed endlessly. When you look beneath the surface you see that there isn't much substance to these platitudes. I have a myriad of examples that can prove that and so do you. Why don't you have a look at the difference between the public posts of the "lovers" and then read the PMs, emails, IMs and possibly phone calls. A different story completely.

Sorry I can't be one of those that will add to the harmony you are seeking but unfortunately being a realist I have to say it like it is and not like I would like it to be. Two different things completely.

Shalom,

Peter


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Roger Macdivitt .

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RE: The World Commonality Organisation
11/10/2009 8:31:45 PM
Quote:
Quote:


Roger,

Interesting reply and unfortunately in some cases based on either misconceptions or lack of knowledge on the subject. I'll just say that the baby steps you mention have been taken many a time and agreements have been signed and then not honored by the Palestinians. Baby steps and giant steps are still on the table but when the other side has an agenda no steps are ever going to be enough I'm afraid.

I recommend that you read the charters of the PLO/Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah and Muslim Brotherhood for a start and you'll find that their agenda is two fold. [BTW,according to the agreements and accords that the PLO/Fatah signed with Israel in the past they were supposed to change their charter but like all the other points in the agreement they weren't honored.]

1. The annihilation of Israel and all the Jews.

2. World domination and the death of all infidels (that includes you unless you're a closet Muslim :) ).

When you consider that I wonder if you'll find anything in common with them.Another suggestion would be to have a serious look at what's happening in England (and all of Europe for that matter) and consider if their goal isn't succeeding at an extremely fast pace.

No, I have nothing in common with them and I seriously doubt you have either. Interacting with individuals is a different story and is possible one on one. I'm not sure how my friends would react when it's not one on one (at least my Muslim friends).

Consider this. The day after the Jihadi terrorist attack in Fort Hood an extreme Muslim website wrote that Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan is "an officer and gentleman" for committing his terrorist attack but they called it a"preemptive attack". You can read about it here.

I have nothing in common with people like that and I'm confident that you haven't either.

I have nothing in common with the Iranian oppressive regime nor with any of the other countries with the worst human rights records in the world. Those same countries today in effect control the infamous UN.

Men of good will eventually find a solution to the conflict but I doubt it will be in my lifetime but I sincerely hope It'll be in my children's and grandchildren's lifetime.

Platitudes are beautiful but the usage of love and unconditional love is being bashed endlessly. When you look beneath the surface you see that there isn't much substance to these platitudes. I have a myriad of examples that can prove that and so do you. Why don't you have a look at the difference between the public posts of the "lovers" and then read the PMs, emails, IMs and possibly phone calls. A different story completely.

Sorry I can't be one of those that will add to the harmony you are seeking but unfortunately being a realist I have to say it like it is and not like I would like it to be. Two different things completely.

Shalom,

Peter


Peter,

A genuine thank you.

I will indeed look at the charters as I never have and don't like to argue against things of which I'm ignorant. I am sure you are right about their aims.

When I look at what is happening in my own country regarding the Muslim issues I have a worry about the whole business of so called democratic and free countries. There is no doubt that our strength lies in our transparency and "doing the right thing" but, it does worry me when commanders of our forces openly condemn goverments for lack of equipment etc. At one time this would have been considered consorting with the enemy and would have incurred the ultimate punishment. So, if these things are kept quiet, as I think that they should for a period of time, then somebody in the civil service leaks the info. This to me is being a traitor.

How can you fight when your enemy is constantly informed of your weakness?

Where we differ Peter is that I think now is the time to use love, as soft and sloppy as that might be considered. It will have to happen one day.

Like you, I have friends from many religious and political spheres and I welcome it. It is lovely to see my grandaughters with friends of very differing cultural backgrounds. This to me is promising for the future.

No matter how much I might disagree with you over particular points I defend your right to hold that view and I also believe that even extremist views should be heard. If all people shared the middle ground we would be unprepared for anything from outside of that comfort zone.

I hope to take my own campaign beyond this precise discussion. I am not stupid enough to believe that I can solve the word's problems but any tiny part of that healing movement has my support.

I hope that one day, I can give you just one glimmer of hope that love might prevail.

I am sorry but words aren't flowing as they should. This happens when I try not to get involved in the particular points raised by people in the hope that I can find some common ground.

I hope that others will find this forum as for some reason I can't bring people directly to the first page.

Roger

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Roger Macdivitt .

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RE: The World Commonality Organisation
11/11/2009 1:08:40 AM

What do we all agree?

What about this statement? :

"I didn't ask to come into this world, but, now that I'm here I would like to be respected and treated as equal to others."

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Luis Miguel Goitizolo

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RE: The World Commonality Organisation
11/11/2009 10:11:53 PM

Hello Roger,

I love the intention behind, the lofty purpose, the ultimate goal of a forum like this. A common ground is from all possible views the only possible starting point to find the solution to any conflict or dilemma, all the more to something as great as what this forum is purportedly aiming at - in fact, as the entire world should seriously be aiming at. Above all, I like the fact that it is your forum and not anyone else's forum what we have here because I trust you and your criterion a hundred percent as to seriousness and integrity and as to something that hardly ever can be seen nowadays: equanimity.

Of course, it is very easy to fall into negativity and see your lofty purpose as something impossible to achieve, as a mere dream. I confess that I myself, having lived through one of the world's most atrocious onslaughts from terrorism ever, the one my country suffered from those criminally insane terrorist group who called themselves Sendero Luminoso ("Shining Path"!) over twenty years, tend to consider it impossible to find a common ground with those fiends. Imagine you are playing soccer against a team who will not follow any rules, ever. Do you think that you can win any match with them if you keep your fair play to the end? Impossible, right?

Please correct me if I am wrong. Just to remember those atrocities, the fear, not only for my own safety but for that of my family and my relatives and friends, the permanent blackouts, the news in the papers, and the fact that you never were sure whether the car a few meters from you was going to explode and kill you, I begin to shake with fury. And much to my regret, I must say that I can not trust, and will never trust, any person who has committed such atrocities who now come out in the open and say that they have changed.

Look, I am not saying that all of them are the same. Some may have been induced to those inhuman acts by the wrong, inhuman acts that they or their folk suffered first. Some may have not committed atrocities themselves but just collaborated with their beastly leaders in perpetrating the most horrible onslaughts against innocent people, even children. Some may in fact regret having collaborated.

But not their leaders. In my country, Abimael Guzman, the leader of Sendero Luminoso, and his close associates in it have come of late in the open claiming that they haven changed and their ways are no longer atrocious. They pretend to get involved in my country's political activity in the future. But they have never said that they regret their past fiendish acts. They don't apparently see the evil in them. They justify their past atrocities on political grounds. I am sure that they would ultimately resort back to the same inhuman acts if they just felt it to be necessary in order to reach their goals of "rightness" and "justice" for all.

So I am afraid that there can be no compromising with evil. No possible deals with them, as quite simply, they would break them at the first opportunity. Above all, there is no possible unity with them.

Nowadays we seem to be at a dead end with no possible way out in the future. In the one hand, killing the wicked or sending them to jail forever as “final solution” would only create new “heroes” among them, apart from the fact that by making inhuman war to the fiends, and in the process becoming beasts ourselves, we would be provoking further retaliation and an eventual nuclear conflagration that could destroy the world in the end. In the other hand, I don't believe that we can do anything about it all by ourselves; but more or less passively awaiting a peaceful solution stemming from our own effort seems to be as well out of the question, as the terrorists’ activity will be mounting every day and we could be condemning ourselves to lose the race - and our world with it.

At this point, something else must come into the picture, something that we do not know about or, rather, that so far has not been mentioned but is the only way out to our predicament.

To be frank, I don't really see what that "something else" could be either - short of asking for help from "above". Things have mounted too much, too far, and if we don’t want to just step aside and watch how our folk, our nation, and ultimately our world are destroyed, then, naive as it may seem, we only have left God to look to for his guidance and help.

Why? There is every reason to believe that we are now at that dreadful moment, in apocalyptical terms, when the forces of light are facing the forces of darkness at the end of a great world age. And if we want to participate of such a momentous, cosmic event and fight the dark, we must take sides with the light. The sooner we do so, the better it will be.

You of course have heard that old saying that "If you want to save the world, then you first need to change yourself." Yes, that old fight between the forces of light and darkness is also carried out within ourselves. And odd as it may sound, only when the light has won at last within ourselves will the salvation of the world be finally ensured.

Sincerely,

Luis Miguel Goitizolo

"Choose a job you love and you will not have to work a day in your life" (Confucius)

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