Hello All, I would just like to add one small reminder to the discussion. If you participate in a Randomizer that uses Pay Pal for payments you are violating the Pay Pal user agreement. Please refer to the Pay Pal User Agreement, where it clearly states the following: Multi-Level Marketing Multi-level marketing plans, also known as "network" or "matrix" marketing, include any business in which a person receives proceeds from his or her own sales of goods or services, of recruited members, or any combination thereof. Similarly, PayPal prohibits as a Multi-Level Marketing plan any business in which payouts occur at two or more levels (both by the individual who actually sold the product as well as by the person(s) "upline" that recruited the selling individual). Pyramid Schemes Pyramid schemes, including Gifting Clubs and Ponzi schemes, involve the exchange of money in relation to the process of enrolling other people into the scheme. PayPal includes in its definition of "pyramid schemes" any system in which a hierarchy is created by people joining under others who joined previously, and in which those who join make payments to those above them in the hierarchy ("upline"). Pyramid schemes are prohibited as a form of investment fraud by federal laws and by the laws of each of the fifty individual states. PayPal considers online payment randomizers to be a type of pyramid scheme because the majority of commissions are paid for recruitment of new members, and typically operate by random placement within the program. Matrix Programs PayPal prohibits as a "matrix program" any business model that involves the exchange of money primarily for the purpose of being added to a waiting list for a product. In these instances, the individual at the top of the list receives the product only after a set number of people have joined below him or her. "Get Rich Quick" And Other Related Businesses Get Rich Quick schemes include any type of self-employment, start-up businesses, or investment opportunity where the claims of profit or returns on investment are unrealistic or unsupported. By law, if a business opportunity costs $500.00 USD or more, the promoter is required to support any claims regarding earnings or profits with written documentation. In determining whether a website or account violates our Pyramid, Multi Level Marketing, and Get Rich Quick Schemes Policy, PayPal will consider some or all of the following factors: Offering commissions to recruit new members Requiring new distributors to purchase costly inventory or "start-up kits" Members' profits are derived from recruiting new members or from the sales of newly-recruited members ("downline"), rather than their own sales Unrealistic or unsupported promises regarding profits/return on investment Percentage of the company’s goods sold by non-distributor Businesses warned against by the Better Business Bureau, state Attorney General, Federal Trade Commission (FTC), or any state or federal agency Flow of money derived from new members predominantly moves "upline" Preservation of the business rests on the exponential growth of new members or customers Now with that having been said I think that if people are against these Randomizer schemes, then perhaps filing a letter of complaint, including the URL that is violating the terms, might be the path to take. Perhaps if we, as honest business people, were to file enough compalints and assist Pay Pal to find these violators, they might actually shut them down along with closing each and every particpants Pay Pal account. I will even make this easier for you to do File Your Complaint Here!

Hi: Wow. I see things got a little heated, so I'm adding some thoughts, responses and some questions for John and Arild. ======================================== Bob said; Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; argument an exchange of ignorance. ======================================== LOL. Very good. Very good indeed. For John; I'm glad you and Gary sorted things out. However, please know that you were out of line to say something like "get a life." To anyone. I understand that emotions run high when money is the issue, but there is never an excuse for bad manners. Gary has assured me that all is resolved and not to worry about it, but I wanted to let everyone know that I invite everyone to share their thoughts - in a well mannered way. For Arild; I am glad the issue for you is not to fight, because fighting and arguing are not welcome here. Talking IS welcome. Very welcome. We all have opinions and they are not always the same. Being able to discuss things as adults, without fighting or arguing, is a sign of maturity - something we should all have since none of us are children. My Conclusion; As Arthur pointed out - the whole point of this forum is for people to be able to discuss issues and learn from the discussions. As Peter pointed out - and Winston also pointed out in an earlier post - paypal randomizers are against the terms of paypal. There are many ways to make money. I can steal a little old ladys purse and make money. I can rob a bank and make money. Will it work? Sure. But is it legal? No. Is it ethical? No. The simple fact is that paypal randomizers are against the terms of paypal. Whether it makes $10, $82 or $375 while I sleep is not important. What's important - to me - is that it's against the terms of paypal, and therefore I would never sign up. I would never recommend it to anyone, either, because in doing so, I know their paypal account could be shut down anytime and they'd lose any money they have in paypal. With that said - here's 3 questions for John and Arild. 1) Are you okay with promoting and using a program that is against paypal's terms? If so, why? 2) Are you okay with knowing that all the people you recuit could get their paypal accounts shut down and lose any money they have? 3) If paypal shut down your account and you lost all the money in your paypal account, as well as lost the ability to use paypal, would you be okay with that? Keep in mind this is a discussion, not an arguement. I am sincerely curious to know how you feel about those 3 questions. : ) Linda

1: NO, when I join something I believe that all his things are solved by the owner of the system. 2: NO, and again answere above. 3: NO, and again answere above. When a person / company comes out with a system - there shall be no problem for the members who join. If so - well, then they have a problem, and makes a problem for everyone who joines it. Best regards Arild

But why ask me as a user - and not all users, instead of the owners? :-)

Hi Arild I am very pleased to see your answers. You're right - it would be nice if the program owners would take care of those kinds of things - but many of them do not. It would be nice if people could join programs knowing that there will be no problems. But that doesn't always happen. The owner does not care. He is making more money than anyone that joins. If his program gets shut down, he will simply start another one. It will be all the members that will lose money and lose their paypal accounts. If anyone reports this particular one, the owner will move on to another program - and it will be you and all the people that signed under you that will lose their money and their paypal accounts. It is a case of someone (the program owners) preying on innocent people. And that is why I discuss things like this here. Because I would feel sad if you lost your money and your paypal account and I didn't warn you. I can not prevent anyone from the choices they make - all I can do is give them the information to make good choices. : ) Linda