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Peter Fogel

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Re: HSIG - Netanyahu To Offer U.S. Three-Part Plan For Peace Talks
4/25/2009 9:48:49 PM
Hello Friends,

Much has been written in the MSM about the new Israeli government led by Prime Minister Netanyahu. Mainly the articles and TV "news" have been negative stating that Bibi is a hardliner and not showing or revealing facts they have that show a different picture.

Below is an article from the Haaretz newspaper that on the whole is very anti Netanyahu but as opposed to the MSM still reports on issues as opposed to creating news and misinforming the readers and viewers.

What we can see is a desire for peace with the Palestinians but a basic demand for recognition that seems to be problematic for them amongst other concessions that they refuse to make. According to them concessions are only for Israel and they only have demands.

Read the article and see for yourselves.

Shalom,

Peter
 



Netanyahu to offer U.S. three-part plan for peace talks
By Aluf Benn and Barak Ravid
Tags: barack obama, iran 
 

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is developing a "laundry list" that he will present to U.S. President Barack Obama when they meet next month in Washington. The Israeli premier will present Obama with a three-part plan involving halting Iran's nuclear program, closer relations with moderate Arab states and dealing with the Palestinian issue through several channels.

Netanyahu will tell Obama that he will not recognize a nation-state providing Palestinian self-determination if the Palestinians don't recognize Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people. From the standpoint of the Israeli prime minister, the requirement that the Palestinians recognize Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people is a fundamental demand in any negotiations on a final settlement. It is not a precondition to conducting negotiations, but rather necessary to progress towards an agreement.

During the course of negotiations to form his coalition government, Netanyahu revealed that the Olmert government demanded recognition of Israel as a Jewish state in its talks with the Palestinians, but withdrew that demand within just 24 hours because of opposition from the Palestinian negotiators. Netanyahu intends to stop the erosion of the fundamental Israeli positions, as was his position during his prior term as prime minister following the Oslo Accords.

Why is Netanyahu insistent on Palestinian recognition of Israel as "the nation-state of the Jewish people," rejecting critics who see the demand as a means to scuttle negotiations? There are a few explanations for his position. First of all, Netanyahu wants to present an Israeli demand for recognition of national rights as a counterweight to the demand that Israel recognize "Palestinian rights." Second, he is concerned that if the Palestinians evade such recognition in political negotiations, they will also refrain from telling their constituency that Israel is the state of the Jewish people, and will continue to pursue the conflict even after a settlement is reached. Third, recognition of a Jewish state will neutralize the Palestinian demand for the "right of return" of Palestinian refugees.

The prime minister also has political considerations, however. To mobilize support from the Israeli public and from the U.S. Congress for his positions in the face of possible pressure from Obama, Netanyahu needs to build a common denominator across party and factional lines. The principle of the "Jewish state" enjoys wide support among relevant sectors of the public, and it is much easier to mobilize support for this than a policy opposing withdrawal from territories and evacuation of settlements.

Netanyahu is also seeking to come to an agreement with the United States defining "limitations on sovereignty" to be imposed on a future Palestinian entity. This includes prohibiting it from maintaining an army or forging military agreements or alliances, and Israel continuing to monitor its external borders, airspace and electromagnetic spectrum. The prime minister's predecessor, Ehud Olmert, unsuccessfully tried to secure such guarantees from the Bush administration, despite having proposed a withdrawal from almost all of the West Bank. Netanyahu accords great importance to security guarantees from the Americans, and thinks he will be more successful in securing them than Olmert had been.

In deliberations Netanyahu is conducting to develop his peace plan, there will also be consideration of gestures which Israel will make to the Palestinians, as well as Israel's response to the demand to freeze construction in the settlements, vacate outposts and remove roadblocks. The prime minister intends to bring the issue of the settlements to a decision by the cabinet, and it is assumed he will only present his position right before his trip to the White House.

Netanyahu believes the Iranian threat provides Israel with an unprecedented opportunity in that, for the first time since 1920, moderate Arab states share the same strategic assessment. In fact, Iran will be central to the plans Netanyahu will present to Obama. He will explain to the American president that the existence of Israel is the guarantor of the continued existence of the Jewish people following the Holocaust and that nuclear weapons cannot fall into the hands of those who deny the existence of the Jewish state. Netanyahu would prefer that the U.S. deal with the Iranian threat and, if Obama asks what Israel would be willing to give in return, the Israeli premier would show great interest in the subject.

Haaretz

Peter Fogel
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Peter Fogel

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Re: HSIG - GERT WILDERS SPEAKS AT THE FLA. FREEDOM OF SPEECH SUMMIT - WOW
4/26/2009 7:26:32 AM

Hello Friends,

It's not often that a person comes along and truly makes an impact on the world as Gert Wilders has. I'm not easily impressed nor do charisma and polished theatrics affect me. But, this man has done that and more. Not by his charismatic personality but by his continued actions and work for the freedom of the western world as we know and love it.

Gert Wilders has put his life on the line and is facing litigation in his country and in other countries too. His life has been threatened by different Islamic groups and yet the man perseveres.

He spoke at the Free Speech summit in Florida yesterday and this speech is a must "listen to" for all freedom loving people. I've listened to many of his speeches but this one not only warns against the dangers of Islam but also gives courses of action we all can take to insure our countries aren't taken over by Islam and Shariah law. The picture is a grim one but there are solutions and if we all take part and work for it we will succeed.

Shalom,

Peter

Thank you Atlas Shrugs for the videos.

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Peter Fogel
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Peter Fogel

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Re: HSIG - Will The 2 State Solution Solve The Israel/Palestine Conflict ?
4/26/2009 10:24:43 AM

Hello Friends,

The world seems to think that the 2 state option is the solution to the Israel/Palestine issue. To be very honest if you had asked me 10 years ago I would have said no way it will never work. Today and for the past few years it's been accepted as something worth trying in order to assure and insure a better future for our children, grandchildren and future generations.

This has been on the table and all Israeli governments have been willing to work towards this goal. There have been many problems and still are. The most important are recognition by the Palestinians that Israel is a Jewish state and an end of the enmity between the 2 sides. Unfortunately the Palestinians can't seem to accept and agree to either of them. The interesting part is that they want Israel to recognize Palestine as a Muslim entity but aren't willing to do the same for Israel.

Over the years that the peace talks have been going on Israel has made many concessions in order to progress with the talks and the Palestinians none what so ever. In addition they aren't able to keep any of the agreements made in the past. This obviously creates an environment of mistrust and doesn't help the talks and the progress in the least.

The above doesn't include the problems between the 2 major factions in the Palestinian arena,  Fatah-PLO/Hamas that can't seem to get their act together and agree on anything. Hamas is against all peace talks in any case as stated in their Charter.

Barry Rubin wrote a brilliant article on this subject worth reading and possibly give you a better understanding of the situation as it stands today.

Shalom,

Peter




Dissolving in the Two-State Solution

By Barry Rubin*

April 25, 2009

 http://www.gloria-center.org/Gloria/2009/04/Dissolving-in-the-two.html

Ring! Ring! The Israeli prime minister's alarm clock went off. He quickly sat up in bed and immediately shouted out: "Yes! I'm for a two-state solution!"

At breakfast, lunch, and dinner, during his talks and all his meetings, in greeting his staff as he walked down the corridor to the office, endless he repeated that phrase.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is what the world seems to want from Israeli policy.

But the fact is that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu accepted the two-state solution back in 1997 when he took over in the midst of the Oslo agreement peace process and committed himself to all preceding agreements.

This is not the real issue. The real issue is this: much of the world wants Israel to agree in advance to give the Palestinian Authority (PA) what they think it wants without any concessions or demonstration of serious intent on its part.

The first problem is that the demand is totally one-sided. Does the PA truly accept a two-state solution? That isn't what it tells its own people in officials' speeches, documents of the ruling Fatah group, schools, the sermons of PA-appointed clerics, and the PA-controlled media.

The second problem is that PA compliance with its earlier commitments is pretty miserable, though this is a point that almost always goes unmentioned in Western diplomatic declarations and media.

More often than not the PA's performance could be called one of anti-confidence-building measures. In other words, what it does makes Israel and Israelis less certain that it is ever going to make a stable and lasting peace.

The third problem is that this leaves no room for asking the question: what does Israel want in exchange for accepting a Palestinian state, leaving West Bank territory, or even agreeing to a Palestinian capital in east Jerusalem.

How about recognizing Israel as a Jewish state since, after all, the PA Constitution defines its country-to-be as an Arab Muslim state and the PA makes clear that all Jews who have come to live there since 1967 must leave. These stances don't bother me in principle only the hypocrisy of doing one thing and demanding Israel do another.

How about agreeing-which any nationalist movement should be eager to do-that all Palestinian refugees be resettled in the state of Palestine.

How about accepting that a two-state solution would permanently end the conflict?

How about stopping daily incitement to kill Israelis and destroy Israel in PA institutions?

How about being open to border modifications or security guarantees like not bringing foreign troops onto Palestinian soil?

Aid to the PA is conditioned on absolutely nothing of the sort. These points aren't even mentioned and Western diplomats and journalists don't wax indignant about the PA's intransigence.

In short, Israel is asked to give without getting in return.

The foreign policy of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Foreign Minister Tsipi Livni often consisted of ritual confirmations that yes indeed they favored a two-state solution and couldn't wait until a Palestinian state came into existence.

That behavior didn't bother me, though they should have raised Israeli demands more often as well. Still, the problem is-and every Israeli saw this-that it brought little benefit. Hamas's takeover of the Gaza Strip, criticism of Israel in defending itself against Hizballah attacks in2006, and the general growing hostility of the Western intelligentsia all took place during the era of "We-favor-a-two-state-solution" repetition.

In the longer-term, the growing demonization of Israel has taken place after it pulled out of the Sinai Peninsula, south Lebanon, the Gaza Strip, and large parts of the West Bank; offered to accept a Palestinian state with its capital in east Jerusalem; let the PLO come in to govern the West Bank and Gaza Strip (including bringing 200,000 Palestinians with it); and provided or permitted the arming of its security forces.

Remember that recent history the next time you hear someone say that more Israeli concessions will bring it peace, security, and a good image.

In recent weeks we have still another myth born, that supposedly the Netanyahu government said  progress with the Palestinians depends on action against Iran's nuclear program. This never happened. As Deputy Foreign Ministry Danny Ayalon made clear, this government policy has three themes: negotiations with the PA, stopping Iran's nuclear program, and improving relations with moderate Arab states. 

There's also a third myth regarding the Arab peace plan. Israeli governments welcomed the plan as a step forward but pointed out two problems preventing them from accepting it. Most important is the demand that any Palestinian who lived or whose ancestors ever lived on what is now Israeli territory can come and live in Israel. This is correctly seen as a ploy to destroy Israel. The other is that borders must be precisely those of 1967. If there's room for discussion t Israel will discuss this plan; if it's take-it-or-leave-it, there's no alternative but the latter.

Finally, the fact that Hamas rules the Gaza Strip is no Israeli rationale for refusing concessions but a huge fact of life. How can Israel make peace with "the Palestinians" when the PA has no such mandate? And how could Israel make peace with a Fatah-Hamas PA regime when such a coalition's effect would not be to moderate Hamas but to make Fatah even more radical.

It's silly to assure Israel that peace will bring it greater security when it's unclear whether the Palestinian government would be taken over by Hamas; wage another round of warfare; fire missiles and be "unable to stop" cross-border attacks; and invite in Iranian or Syrian troops. That king of two-state solution would be far worse than the status quo.

So let's say it again: If the PA shows itself ready to make and keep a reasonable two-state peace agreement there can be a deal. Let them get two dozen billion dollars of international "compensation" Let the Palestinian people live happily ever after in their Arab, Muslim state with rising living standards.

OK, now what's in it for Israel?



*  Barry Rubin is director of the Global Research in International Affairs (GLORIA) Center and editor of the Middle East Review of International Affairs (MERIA) Journal. His latest books are The Israel-Arab Reader (seventh edition), with Walter Laqueur (Viking-Penguin); the paperback edition of The Truth About Syria (Palgrave-Macmillan); A Chronological History of Terrorism, with Judy Colp Rubin, (Sharpe); and The Long War for Freedom: The Arab Struggle for Democracy in the Middle East (Wiley). To read and subscribe to MERIA, GLORIA articles, or to order books, go to http://www.gloria-center.org. His blog, Rubin Reports is at http://rubinreports.blogspot.com/.
Peter Fogel
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Robert De Merode

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Re: HSIG - Will The 2 State Solution Solve The Israel/Palestine Conflict ?
4/26/2009 1:04:15 PM

Hello Peter,

You are right in hoping that Geert, this gentleman may succeed in this perilous undertaking. To say it bluntly, I do not give him much chance of seeing that day. I do however hear what he is saying, “political subjectivity” or “political relativity” call is as you wish. This is the real problem the real down to the root fact. I see it as having exploded all from religious “freedom” a freedom that sets all religions on the same level and thereby has created religious irrelevancy. This irrelevancy has spread to all hierarchies that compound our civilizations, or “have” compounded our civilizations. Until we western civilizations get our acts together, we will continually be submerged by these books he mentions as “The Final Solution” or “the Koran” or the “European Constitution” which for the later is nothing more or less than the final banning of our cultures and of our civilization. We Europeans have forgotten who we are!

Hey! What’s this need for multi culturerism?  Is there not sufficient difference between an Italian and a Dutch, between a Pole and a Portuguese, a Greek and an Irish?

With no irrelevancy to the seriousness of this thread, I heard the other day, I do not remember where the joke came from but it's all too sadly true. “Yankee go home! But hey, take me with you!”

Friendly yours,

Robert.

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Helen Elias

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Re: HSIG - Will The 2 State Solution Solve The Israel/Palestine Conflict ?
4/26/2009 4:38:16 PM


Thank you, Peter, for posting Geert Wilders' speech here.  It was an excellent speech.

What struck me as interesting (in a negative way) is the darkness that has been created in Europe due to absence or dwindling of other faiths in Europe such as Christianity, Judaism, Catholicism.  The absence or the weakening states of these beliefs which tends to take God out of the picture making the influx of Muslims with Islam a ground ripe for the picking.  Islamists would rather their people not go into a country where they could be influenced by another 'religion'.  In Europe, in my opinion, they have nothing much to worry about.  Actually this is true for the entire of the western countries.

Holland and Germany have almost completely turned from God going their own secular way.  It is no wonder they pay for this now, in my opinion.  There needs to be a turning back not to organized religion but to God.   God does not stay where He is not wanted and that's when the troubles begin to worsen. 

I know not everyone agrees with me on this and that is ok.  It was just something that struck me when I began watching the Geert videos even though I am for Geert and his ideas.

Actually any western country could so easily get rid of nonsense of "political correctness".  You just need a few people to speak up like Geert is doing and then run for government office.  People don't want "political correctness".  They want someone with a backbone who will tell it like it is and act accordingly.  A dried-up 70 year old woman/man could run for office in many states and win if she/he came out and said "We will not tolerate any political correctness.  We will stop immigration from especially Muslim countries.  And any number of politically incorrect actions will be taken in other areas as well.  Etc., etc., etc."  People WANT someone who is strong enough to say what they mean and mean what they say.  We should write to our politicians and tell them that.

Maybe you don't want to hear what I think but remember this ...I may be running for election in a state or county near you and then you will love me.  :)

Robert, I enjoyed your 'Yankee, go home' joke.  I will be keeping that for one of my 'inappropriate politically incorrect' emails.

Have a great day!

Helen

Spend $4 and get back $10 every time you spend. Contact me (Helen) at this email »»» zhebee@yahoo.com
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