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Valerie Clavin

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Re: Human Shields In Gaza - Hamas Accused Of Torturing Palestinians
2/2/2009 3:49:55 PM

Peter,

   I am so, so, sorry that your country is in such turmoil and has been for so long. The decisions that Leaders must make are never easy and there's always someone to 2nd guess them. That someone usually has no better answer just a reason for admonishing the Leaders.

 I apreciate the info you have given very much, I no longer listen the news as it is biased no matter what channel I watch. I've never seen a Democrat nor a republican - not 1 politician tell the "whole" truth and they are very good at slanting it. I'd much rather hear it from those that live it - such as yourself.

Thanks, I pray for your safety and that of your family. Prayers for all children as well.

Blessings

Valerie Clavin

Hugs = Priceless

Glimpse

PS. Georgios meant no harm, I believe he only meant to explain with pictures what words could not explain. If we learned to ask before judging the intent of others, maybe there'd be far fewer wars? Think?

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Helen Elias

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Re: Human Shields In Gaza - Hamas Accused Of Torturing Palestinians
2/2/2009 5:18:35 PM


Hello Valerie

I don't think you know Georgios.  Have you read
some of his other posts?  With Georgios' posts,
you have to read between the lines.

As to the last sentence of your post which I gather
is directed at Peter, you are mistaken.  Peter has
been nothing but patient with Georgios (and others)
and tolerant ...a lot more tolerant than I would be.
Peter doesn't have to judge Georgios' intent; he
already knows what it is.

Helen

Spend $4 and get back $10 every time you spend. Contact me (Helen) at this email »»» zhebee@yahoo.com
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Peter Fogel

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Re: Human Shields In Gaza - A Short History Lesson
2/2/2009 6:20:07 PM

Hi Geketa,

Thanks for popping in during the freeze you're going through now. I hope your luck will hold up during the second front hitting Kentucky tomorrow.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the latest Dry Bones. Personally I think it's a combination of the 2. He's definitely pandering to the Hamas/Islamic propaganda and is also trying to "appease" the European community he so much wants to join.

He's definitely succeeded in upping his rating's within the Islamic community and his constituents in Turkey but I'm not so sure about the EU.

What I do find so hypocritical on his part is that the Turks have been fighting the Kurds fer years and bombing them too and their reason is that the Kurds are terrorists. Interesting isn't it??

You might find the following article by Barry Rubin interesting.

Shalom,

Peter

 EGYPT AND TURKEY: HEADING IN OPPOSITE DIRECTIONS


By Barry Rubin

Two of the region’s most important countries—Egypt and Turkey—are at a crossroads right now. Egypt has the chance to again be the Arab world’s central power; in contrast, Turkey’s government is throwing away the opportunity to become a major diplomatic player in the region while hammering the last nail into the coffin of its chance for European Union membership.

Let’s consider Egypt first. In the Gaza war’s aftermath, everyone is asking Cairo its preferences for policing the border with Hamas’s radical Islamist semi-state next door. Egypt must take the lead in any new arrangement to stop arms’ smuggling. Moreover, that country is now the Palestinian Authority’s indispensible patron and will determine whether a coherent international effort will be made to bring down Hamas. Any hope for an Arab-Israeli peace process or, more likely, simple stability is riding with Egypt now.But that’s not all. In recent months, Egypt has taken decisive public steps toward being the leader of moderate Arab resistance to the Iran-Syria axis, radical Islamism, and—in most Arabs’ minds—a Shia threat.

Can the aging President Husni Mubarak put himself at the head of a moderate Arab coalition? Can he and his colleagues play tutor to a new U.S. government looking for a new strategy in the region? Will his successor, hopefully someone of toughness and experience, continue an anti-radical strategy or seek to appease the extremists at home? On the answers to these questions the Middle East’s future may depend.

Note that President Barrack Obama has no special link to any regional country, in sharp contrast to his two Bush predecessors who had ties with Saudi Arabia. A clever strategy could build a strong Obama-Egypt connection in which Washington would look to Cairo for ideas. Otherwise, Obama could be drawn into making concession after concession to Tehran and Damascus. European countries, notably France and Britain, would prefer to work with Egypt as well.

Remember, too, that for Egypt this isn’t merely a foreign policy issue. The critical question is whether the country can put together a post-Husni Mubarak system that will stand for decades against the Muslim Brotherhood’s challenge. Successes for Iran, Syria, Hizballah, and Hamas are not only defeats for Egypt’s regional posture but will inspire more domestic unrest.

So it is going to be Egypt-Saudi Arabia or Iran-Syria; moderate Arab nationalists or extreme Islamists; those who want regional stability or those who prefer war and bloodshed.

Mubarak has the chance to leave a great legacy. It’s up to him. The ball is in Egypt’s court.
Then there’s Turkey. We have known for some time that the Ataturk era is over, but now we see that an Islamist-oriented period has begun. It isn’t just the unprecedented high level of abuse aimed against Israel. Nor is it merely the statements verging on the antisemitic which have frightened Turkish Jews more than at any time in modern history. It is also the increasing confidence—one might say arrogance—of the ruling AKP party, more openly pushing an Islamist-oriented agenda, and in some ways apparently drifting closer to Iran and Syria.

What is motivating the AKP to look more and more like a wolf in sheep’s clothing? The most important factor is its success. From election to election, the AKP increases its base of support. The opposition remains divided and incompetent. The party’s leaders may increasingly be thinking they will be in power forever and inclined to make sure their wish comes true.

And so the media is intimidated; the army is curbed by periodic arrests in retaliation for alleged coup plans. A new constitution is being written for the country. Systematically, institutions are being taken over: the party’s men are put into the bureaucracy; its controlling shadow falls on the universities, and it installs new judges in the courts.
The presidents of Iran and Sudan are feted as heroes, the would-be mass murders of the first and the already implemented killings of the second are ignored. The first got a security cooperation treaty; both obtained offers of more Turkish investments in their gas=producing fields. No wonder the AKP is so friendly with Iran, Sudan, and Hamas—they view them as ideological fellows.

As the Turkish analyst Soner Cagaptay put it, “It appears that [Prime Minister Recep Tayyip] Erdogan, “has finally answered the question of where Turkey belongs--and that in his opinion, it's not with the West.” Almost exactly seventy years after his death, the republic’s founder Ataturk is no doubt rolling in his grave which, by the way, the AKP no longer invites visiting Islamist leaders to visit when they come to Ankara.

It is not all a free ride for Turkey, though. Erdogan has thrown away the economically valuable Israeli tourist trade—advice: go to Georgia or Azerbaijan instead—and his country’s diplomatically prestigious ability to mediate in disputes. The Turkish government was proud to host the Israel-Syria talks but it is doubtful if Israel will trust it again in that position. And as for the idea of Turkish participation in guarding Gaza’s borders against smuggling,
Erdogan’s inciteful hate Israel speeches will exclude the country from that role also.

Even worse, there are many in the European Union looking for new reasons to keep Turkey out of that select club. The AKP’s extremist turn gives ample evidence of an Islamist rather than a moderate, “modern” orientation.

The Turkish government’s open partnership with radical forces horrifies many Turks and will lose Ankara lots of friends abroad. It is not too late to pull back, but it is likely the AKP will go even further, fueled by likely successes in local elections this summer.
For Egypt, in contrast, there is a great opportunity.

Will Ankara’s loss be balanced by Cairo’s gain?


Barry Rubin is director of the Global Research in International Affairs (GLORIA) Center in Herzliya, Israel, and editor of the Middle East Review of International Affairs (MERIA) Journal. His books include The Truth About Syria; The Tragedy of the Middle East; and The Long War for Freedom: The Arab Struggle for Democracy in the Middle East.

Peter Fogel
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Peter Fogel

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Re: Human Shields In Gaza - Hamas Accused Of Torturing Palestinians
2/2/2009 6:30:32 PM

Hi JoAnne,

I've already seen these pictures and much worse ones too. It is sad when you consider that our main objective is to have peace in our area so that our children, grandchildren and future generations can live in a different reality then the one we face today.

I wonder how these brainwashed and in a way traumatized children will be able to accept the concept of peace when they are being brainwashed and indoctrinated to hatred and killing Jews/Israelis and non believers?

It is a sad future to contemplate and all we can do in the meantime is to continue to defend ourselves until a solution can be found. Hopefully that will happen in our lifetime.

Shalom,

Peter

Peter Fogel
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Valerie Clavin

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Re: Human Shields In Gaza - Hamas Accused Of Torturing Palestinians
2/2/2009 6:39:33 PM

Helen,

As to the last sentence of your post which I gather
is directed at Peter, you are mistaken.  Peter has
been nothing but patient with Georgios (and others)
and tolerant ...a lot more tolerant than I would be.
Peter doesn't have to judge Georgios' intent; he
already knows what it is.

No, I was not directing anything at Peter. I think sometimes that is what causes arguments, we assume too much and forget to ask what is meant first before lashing out. I should have specified that I meant mankind as a whole. Yes, I've seen Georgios posts and agree Peter is very Patient. Georgios just seems to get defensive easily. He can be a very sweet, knowledgable gentleman when approached with dignity - as we all can.

Blessings

Valerie Clavin

Hugs = Priceless

Glimpse

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