Not at all. Only God is perfect. We are simply sinners who have been saved by the grace of God in all that we do. Unlike some groups that espouse the doctrine of "sinless perfection," we claim niether the church nor any individual in the church to be "perfect." However, i sent this to a friend here at adland today, however, that does not mean Apathy is Acceptable! Rabbi Jesus made that very clear in Revelations 3:15-16 when he rebuked lethargy and commended earnestness. In 1 John 1:7-10 we see that God expects us to walk in the light. Yet we still sin, and in his grace he has made provision for that through the sacrifice of rabbi Jesus Christ on the cross. get this even Moreover, we do not believe that ou leaders are perfect. Even the great apostle Paul admitted as much in Philippines 3:12-13. Although we hold very high standards for our leaders, they still make mistakes. the thousand of leaders around the world are certaintly going to make a number of mistakes, even while having the best of intentions, sometime i have a problem with that soime of you have pointed out. Grace is a daily reality for the disciples of rabbi Jesus. Each true follower of rabbi Jesus is willing to admit his or her sin, repent and rejoice in the love of God. Disciples grow as they change to be more like rabbi Jesus. I hope some of you understand who i am and who i represent, please dont listen to uncommitted people who only take pleasure in bad mouthing, to tear one down and to keep a tight raign on others for there own satifisfactions. I am here to encourage and to give thanks where thanks is needed. My mistake is to do so from what i hear and read. God_bless you, your prayerwarrior Thomas a disciple of the International Church's of Christ (non-denominational) body of Christ.

Hi Tom,

Yes, the only One we can rely on is the Lord Jesus Christ.  I am in the Church
Body of fellow believers but not part of any church building structure or under
any denomination.

I use to be comfortable in my church (building) for most of my early life until I
met  Jesus. 
Since then I have been uncomfortable in the church pews.  I have not been
affiliated with any church since. 
I found that one can become complacent and quite pious, judgemental etc r
esiding in the church building whereby people are very comfortable in their surroundings and do not see, understand, comprehend the needs of new people coming in and ignore them as someone else will make them welcome.

I found this as I tried to fit into a couple of churches back in Oregon - I had hoped
that I would make some new friends and be accepted within the fold. 
What I found was many churches these days are preaching they need money for
new kitchen updates, more space in the car parks, carpets for the interior etc etc.

One of the churches James and I attended was very friendly, however the
teachings in the service was Fire and Brimstone.  If Christian's drink, smoke,
fornicate etc etc you are going to hell - kinda service. 

I understand the bible warns us against these kind of lifestyles, and their consequences - yet I have come to my own understanding  to accept people
where they are right now, and not be shining a light on their faults, addictions habits etc. 

I believe that we ALL have faults, some habit or addiction that we would rather not
have or have better control of and as a mother would I be drilling my two children about their bad habits and making them feel worse instead of loving them.  No, I
told my children I would never stop loving them I am their mother for life.  I see
God as my Father in Heaven who does not like what we do when we mess up
yet this is why He sent His Son Jesus down to earth to stand in the gap for us
interceding on our behalf and encouraging and renewing us.  Jesus understands
as He was tempted too and knows what it is like to be earth bound.

I believe that Jesus does not like our addictions and habits as they can come between our relationship with Him due to our feelings of guilt.  He loves us where
we are today/right now and we are a 'work in progress' and under construction on
a daily basis repairing and renewing our thoughts, heart attitude to one another
and ourselves.
I believe the first part of loving other people is to love oneself first and accept our
shortcomings and let Jesus renew us.  That way we have been brought out of
the place we were in and have compassion and understanding when we meet
another who is in the place we were and can emphasize with them and encourage
instead of being critical.

I believe that we do not know where another person is in their personal walk and
their faults we see in another are often the same faults we have with ourselves.
There are not two people in the Body of Christ who is in exactly the same place
as me. (you) I am either ahead of others in some areas and behind on other areas.
I can help by being an elder person, or I can learn from an elder person (this is
within the body and not about a persons age)

We are walking in a state of GRACE (God's Riches at Christ's Expense). Which
is - while we are unaware of making wrong decisions, beliefs, going along with the law, (abortion and partial birth abortion as one example) that is not what Jesus has taught and inadvertently hurting others by act or deed...The moment we are made aware by the Holy Spirit enlightening us - then we have a decision to make. To stop, make amends, forgive our self, the other person and move away from that place we are in and start afresh.  Stand up and be counted.

I believe however, that should we decide to stay within that situation, going along with
the law, and the flow of what our friends are doing etc even though you know it is not right - one is out of GRACE and is unprotected and if we stay long enough in this place our conscientious is being dulled, whereby we are not in tune with the Lord
and can go very astray.  There are consequences of our decisions, actions, speech
etc good or bad.

I have found that church does not really teach one compassion for another and
remind us that each of us is being sought out on a daily basis by the Holy Spirit
who is going from person to person, seeking out who has a 'flicker' of interest
or looking to find out more who God is and the Holy Spirit is ready to place someone
in our path to lead them to Jesus.

The church seems to be too busy reminding the people who sitting in the pews
all our faults and everyone else's faults that we are becoming judgemental.
I believe it is OK to gently inform another that their actions are wrong and explain
where, what, why and then leave it up to the Holy Spirit to show that person.  We
are required to show them friendship and acceptance where they are right now.

Since I moved away from the church structure, I have grown more.  I have found friendship and kindred spirit with people whom are not professing christians or believers.    I have found great friends because we have found mutual interests.
Some of them I have no real idea where they stand with Jesus as they may or
may not know Him personally.  I know that the Holy Spirit is working around the
clock seeking and it is more important to me that we are friends than where they
are.  I reckon that if they are not against our Heavenly Father then they are for Him.

Radical extremists of Muslim, Sects etc I have difficulty with as they are not for
our Heavenly Father but on an agenda and god of their own. 


Amanda

Greetings Amanda and thank you for your input, i know where you and James stand in your personal beliefs, you do have the faith that God wants you to have, your seeking out the truth as he has always stated, i have said this before that the body of Christ is not a church building, its the people of believers that make up the church, hence heaven on earth, not perfect but we strive for that perfection in us through His spirit and that salvation is y the grace of God and was purchased by Christ's death on the cross. There is no deeds we can do that are sufficient to earn us God's forgiveness or pay for the debt of our sin. Sin can be forgiven only through the blood of Christ Romans 3:23-26. As for me i do preach the biblical doctrine of repentance from sin and that true biblical faith results in obedience Romans 1:5. The Bible teaches that without a change and committed life, our faith is dead and does not lead to salvation James 2:14-26. Now i ask do i sound like i put myself first of God? if i didn't know this teaching i would have. About Muslims and there way of living, some who believe in a God of war is not the same as the true God the creator our savior Jesus Christ, they just like many traditions were raised and brought up that way its very hard to change ones daily life in an instant because we fine fault with them, it is up to us as God would want us is to love one another as he loved us, its hard to do that when you see your friend dies from an attack in war, many years later during the Vietnam war we were angry at the other side and we didn't even know why, we were told orders and we did it, im not a vet but my father was and his buddys were and at a young age i saw many things that a normal kid shouldn't of have, i don't blame my father for anything but i did blame me for  long time until i found Christ, the point is not all Muslims and not all Koreans, believe in this type of God, bear in mind Christ died for all.  Rabbi Jesus taught his disciples to go into the world and make other disciples. This involved older or more mature disciples teaching and training young converts to become more like rabbi Jesus. Being "discipled" simply means getting input, advice and teaching from people we know and respect so that each one of us can become more like rabbi Jesus. Being "discipled" does not mean that someone else makes our decisions for us nor does it mean blindly doing whatever were told. Discipling is based on a relationship of trust, friendship and closeness, and breaks down if the people involved do not become great friends who respect and appreciate each other's faith, love and individuality. In our churches we work hard to make sure that all disciples have at least one person who helps them to have a Christ-like perspective, to make needed changes, and to get the encouragement needed to live the Christian life. I hope i didn't bore you... I don't want to preach to anyone , having been evoked to do so is why of this thread so you members will understand who i represent. You mentioned elders, we take that very seriously to get advice and to respect fully of there words and history of sharing so that we as younger learn as well, its biblical therefore must be doctrine in my life i live but as human nature is we tend to find out for ourselves, a wrong way perhaps but its all part of what God has planned for you, still we have to keep in step with the spirit and not sway of the path to righteousness.

Tom

I really like this sentence as it says so much in a nutshell.

Being "discipled" does not mean that someone else makes our decisions for us
nor does it mean blindly doing whatever we're told.
Discipling is based on a relationship of trust, friendship and closeness, and breaks down if the people involved do not become great friends who respect and appreciate each other's faith, love and individuality.

Walking with the Lord has been an uphill struggle for me and I have and am
being tested a lot that is nearly but not quite the end of my tether...I had some
very strong faith views that I would not be hurt, maimed or killed unless from my
recklessness and stupidity because I did not listen to the Lord..

I know where you and James stand in your personal beliefs, you do have the faith
that God wants you to have, your seeking out the truth as he has always stated,

When my horse bucked me off in June and I broke both wrists and hurt my back,
There was a time I became angry with God and let Him have it, told Him what I
thought about my situation and I wanted to walk away from Him - yet I knew and
He knew that is not is not an option because we have a bond that cannot be
broken.
I was angry because I did not ride the horse out of foolishness or take an unsafe
chance on the horses back. 

I was angry because the people I bought the gelding horse from, their trainer/rider
did not tell me that he could not be ridden bare back or even take my feet out of the stirrups.  The horse had had over 300 trail rides and been lassoed off his back
(not that I was wanting to lasso, just pleasure ride)

When James and I looked him over and I rode him, I did not have any misgivings
about buying him.  I rely on my intuitive nature God gave me and I act upon any
misgivings and not go rushing into before I have had time to talk it over better
with James.
Yet when they delivered him along with his son whom we gave away -
There was plenty of time that this trainer could have told me as we were
talking and seeing them settle with our two mares (one of which I was going to sell but ended up selling this new horse and keeping my mare).

He was not a good fit with our girls, as he was like a stallion again with his mares
(yet he was gelded)  he killed two of our chickens by stamping on them..
Pulled down one of the porch railings then tearing around the paddock with the
railing still attached to the lead rope and whipping the girls in a frenzy that took
us over an hour to catch him and settle everyone down.  He became so hard to
catch we had to have a 40 foot rope on him so we could stand on the other end
to catch him- plus other issues!!  Whether these previous owners had him
on drugs or what...

I was angry because I never once felt that I should not get on his back a warning
from the Holy Spirit which I am use to having which I rely on when some thing
is not right.  So I was not expecting to be thrown off so suddenly and was not
prepared for the heavy fall. 

It was around 6pm and I always said to James I would not ride on my own if I felt unsafe because there is no one around to help me should I hurt myself.  I lay on
the ground in an excruciating heap and knew that my right wrist was broken or dislocated by the shape and angle it was in, my left wrist I thought was sprained. 
It was my back that hurt the most and I was not sure if I could get up. I had to lay
there with my face in the dirt for what seemed ages to give myself time for the initial pain to subside and I was praying out loud for the Lord to help me as I needed someone to help me.  No one came. We live at the end of the road.. Our neighbours
do not visit us - we have popped into their place from time to time to say hi..
I was able to turn myself over gingerly and slowly then I hurt even more on my back,
so I turned over and managed to get up on my elbows and knees and somehow managed to get up and crawl to something I could brace myself up on and get to
the house.  I got some ice and went and laid propped up on the bed until James came home around 9pm.  I think it took me about an hour outside before I could
come inside.

God knows that James and I cannot afford the health insurance and the doctors
visit to put my wrist back in place very excruciating I must add.. Was also excruciating
when the bill arrived as it was over $1,200.00!!
For the first 2 weeks I could not lay down in bed, nor walk around, sit, stand for long.
I slept in the lazy boy chair in the lounge when I could.  I could not do basis care of
myself so would have to wait for James to help me dress and bath.

I am still in a lot of pain with my back and no amount of prayer has helped this
area so I am still having some difficulty with my faith in healing, and slowly restoring
my faith that He is there for me.

Thanks for listening Tom, I have not really let fly with anyone the feelings of
desertion I have and just not quite being in the Lords Will - somehow I am out
of sync in some areas.  I know we need the body to help each other and lift each
other up in our weak spots and encouragement.

Amanda