Well Pauline, First, To make it abundantly clear, I NEVER said YOU were either illogical or clueless. IF you choose to refer to your- self in those terms, that is your prerogative. Second, It was, and is, wrong for people to discriminated against those who are not the same color or the same sex we or of the same sexual orientation we are. And it is just as wrong for Christians to discriminate against us because we believe in one less god than they do. (After all, Christians believe in many less gods than Hindus believe in.) Third I have listed why I am an Atheist Activist in my "We Atheists" forum -- http://community.adlandpro.com/forums/20976/showforum.aspx --------- And in the forum below, I've listed what has to happen before I stop complaining about how far too many Christians treat us. --- http://community.adlandpro.com/forums/thread/560026.aspx ------ SO, if you are serious about doing something positive, you can see what needs to be done. Neil

Ok Neil, forget the illogical part and clueless part, im ok, believe me.

I did go over to your last forum u mentioned, 'I will quit'
forum...

Now I wonder how long will it take to reverse 200 yrs of democratic rule, and the consitution of your country...when I see its founding fathers most of whom were GOD believers.

If there were as many of you united to stand for a cause and if the problem was so great in dynamics as you say it is...then one should have seen some progressive developement by now right???? why do you think this has not happened Neil ???

On the other hand I see more and more diversity in faiths thriving in your country !!! there are temples and mosques...Im really wondering ...enlighten me on this Neil ??

Pauline R

See, Pauline there you go. One of the FIRST things you do is to repeat A LIE told by Christians about the founding of our county! THE U.S. WAS NOT FOUNDED BY CHRISTIANS! Read what a HONEST CHRISTIAN Minister and HISTORIAN says: http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm ------------------------------ In 1796, while George Washington was President. the United States Congress began the process of writing a treaty with Tripoli. Then in 1797, it was unanimously ratified by Congress and signed into law by then President John Adams. Among other things, this treaty stated: "The United States of America is in no sense founded on the Christian religion." AND, "The United States of America is no more a Christian state than it is a Jewish or Mohammedan state." ------------------------- Remember now, this treaty was started while George Washington was president. Then, it was UNANIMOUSLY passed by Congress and signed by then President John Adams. Now, ANYONE who believes they know more about the founding of our county and the principals it was founded on than did John Adams, George Washington & all the members of Congress in 1797, is not playing with a full deck! They have bats in their belfry! ----------------------------- Some more FACTS for you. ---- http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html ----------------------------- "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries." Pres. James Madison ----------------------------- "The constitutional freedom of religion [is] the most inalienable and sacred of all human rights." Pres. Thomas Jefferson, 'Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes,' 1819 -------------------------------- NOTE - IT IS A CHRISTIAN WHO REPORTED THE FOLLOWING "Not only were a good many of the revolutionary leaders more deist than Christian, the actual number of church members was rather small. Perhaps as few as five percent of the populace were church members in 1776" Lynn R. Buzzard, Exec Director of Christian Legal Society, As quoted in "They Haven't Got a Prayer" Elgin IL: David C. Cook, 1982, page 81 -------------------------------- "George Washington thought he belonged to the Episcopal church, never mentioned Christ in any of his writings and he was a Deist." Richard Shenkman "I love Paul Revere, whether He Rode or Not." New York: Harper, Collins, 1991. ------------------------------- While many Christians simply dismiss the vast contributions to our country made by Thomas Paine, George Washington said that without Thomas Paine, there would have NEVER been a United States Of America in the first place! (And George Washington most certainly knew more about it than ANY Christian who is living to day or any time after our founding!) ------------------------- "I disbelieve all holy men and holy books." Thomas Paine ------------- "What have been Christianity's fruits? - superstition, bigotry and persecution." Pres. James Madison ------------------- One of our MOST Important "Founding Fathers" Benjamin Franklin, said: "Revealed religion has no weight with me." --------------------- Another of our MOST Important "Founding Fathers" U.S. President Thomas Jefferson said: "I do not find in Christianity one redeeming feature" AND, "The Christian God is cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust." ======================= Next, other faiths have NOTHING TO DO with the way Christians MALTREAT American Atheists! AND AGAIN, MOST Americans who are Atheists are SO AFRAID of how American Christians will treat them they will NOT "Come out of the closet!" and THAT is WRONG! ==================== 200 years? GIVE ME A BREAK! When I was in High School, We DID NOT HAVE this "Under God" CRAP in OUR pledge! And we did NOT have this "In God We Trust" CRAP on OUR printed money! Christians ARE SELFISH and they act like they OWN the U.S.! THEY DO NOT! Neil

Suffer my ignorance Neil, Im just trying to learn here, and understand. yes thats what im wondering how , why and when did the 'In God we trust' and the other 'Christian stuff' come to be as it is ??? Which means there must have been considerable Christian strength present to have this  implemented. right ? Now to effect a change, how do u see it could possibly happening ?

Pauline R

Pauline, Christians (not all) have been attempting to crush the wall of separation between Church and State which was intended by our Founding Fathers since the founding of our country. They can not get it though their thick heads it is one of the MOST important things the Founders did which separated it from all of the European counties most Americans had come from. Religion and the mixture of Church and State had been, & still was, the single most decisive problems in Europe and the Founders wanted no part of it. So some Christians take every chance they get to shove THEIR beliefs on all of us, This is selfish, uncaring, unfair and wrong. Yet they do not care about the rights of others as long as they get their way. Anywho, the Christian religious crap was put in our pledge and on our paper money after 1954. It was due to the Communists hysteria witch hunts caused by a nutty Republican Congressman named Eugene McCarthy. His actions are one of the dark spots on American history! ---------------------- Here is the same reply to you I put in the other forum as it belongs here as well. I NEVER said that you, Pauline, hated Atheists. I doubt MOST Germans hated Jews, ONLY because the MAJORITY of Germans just sat back and did not take active steps to stop they actions of those who did hate Jews, we have what happened in Germany during WWII. The same applies to the United States. Because Christians, and not even a minority of them much less a majority, do NOT take steps to stop the maltreatment of Americans who are Atheists, this poor treatment will just continue! And it will continue until: A. More Atheists come out of the closet and demand to be treated as equals. and B. More fair minded Christians do their part as well! And of course, enough Atheists are NOT going to come out of the closet until they are no longer AFRAID to do so! As it is 2:35 AM and I am ti ti, I am going nite nite now. So TaTa Neil