Menu



error This forum is not active, and new posts may not be made in it.
Promote
James Wright

1372
2397 Posts
2397
Invite Me as a Friend
Top 100 Poster
Person Of The Week
Re: God's Justice and Judgment...Part III
10/31/2007 9:21:31 PM

Judy, actually the seals you are referring to have been opened up. This is a whole new topic for discussion, in which I will try to cover at a later time. Thanks for stopping by my friend. Your prayers are definitely appreciated!!

+0
James Wright

1372
2397 Posts
2397
Invite Me as a Friend
Top 100 Poster
Person Of The Week
Re: God's Justice and Judgement...Part III
10/31/2007 9:26:49 PM

Hi Rudy, the link you provided brought a 404 error. Could you check it for me. I'd like to take a look at it!!

+0
Rudy Hiebert(rudyhiebert.myamsoil.c

228
1086 Posts
1086
Invite Me as a Friend
Re: God's Justice and Judgement...Part III
11/1/2007 12:21:56 AM
For some reason the link doesn't want ot work, so I suggest just doing a Google w/ Joel Rosenbeg's book,  Epicentre or try this Youtube link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gObY4oox874
+0
Terry Gill

674
51 Posts
51
Invite Me as a Friend
Re: God's Justice and Judgment...Part III
11/1/2007 2:11:03 AM

Judy,

James is right about the seals having been already opened up, which the article I will post below explains in part.  But before I do, it is my Christian duty to try to enlighten you about something else you mentioned.  This enlightenment can only take place, though, if you have the proper heart condition to receive it.  The Bible teaches that only the 144,000 are going to heaven, and Judy, you and I and all the rest have the hope of everlasting life here in the new paradise earth, right in accord with God's original purpose for the earth and mankind, which has not changed and absolutely has to come true.

God’s inspired Word, the Bible, is the standard by which we need to measure the truthfulness of all beliefs. (2 Timothy 1:13; 3:16, 17) Therefore, what does it say about the rapture?

‘Caught Away to Meet the Lord’—How?

THE countdown to the end of the present wicked system continues irrevocably. With the passing of every hour, every minute, every second, we approach striking events prophesied long ago. Is the rapture one of these? If it is, when and how will it occur?

The word "rapture" does not appear in the Bible. But those who believe in it cite the apostle Paul’s words at 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as the basis for their belief. Let us examine this scripture in its context. Paul wrote:

"Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping in death; that you may not sorrow just as the rest also do who have no hope. For if our faith is that Jesus died and rose again, so, too, those who have fallen asleep in death, through Jesus, God will bring with him. For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Consequently keep comforting one another with these words."—1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. (Which teaching, by the way, of a resurrection of those who have fallen asleep in death very clearly disproves Christendom's false teaching of instant reward at death.  The dead are simply asleep in the grave, awaiting Jesus' promised resurrection back to a paradise earth.)

The congregation in Thessalonica was relatively new when Paul addressed his first letter to Christians there in about 50 C.E. Members of the congregation were distressed that some of their number were "sleeping in death." However, what Paul wrote comforted the Thessalonians with the resurrection hope.

Christ’s "Presence"

While confirming that faithful Christians then dead would be resurrected, Paul also said: "The living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death." (Verse 15) Noteworthy, indeed, is the apostle’s reference to the Lord’s "presence." Here the original-language text uses the Greek word pa·rou·si´an, which literally means "being alongside."

When a foreign head of State visits a country, the dates of his presence there are generally announced. This has been true of the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Watchtower has consistently presented evidence to honesthearted students of Bible prophecy that Jesus’ presence in heavenly Kingdom power began in 1914. Events since that year testify to Jesus’ invisible presence. (Matthew 24:3-14) So by saying that certain Christians living during the Lord’s presence would be "caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air," Paul meant that those survivors would be meeting Christ, not in earth’s atmosphere, but in the invisible heavenly realm where Jesus sits at God’s right hand. (Hebrews 1:1-3) But who are they?

"The Israel of God"

The Scriptures say much about fleshly Israelites and also speak of the spiritual "Israel of God." Jewish and Gentile believers were to make up the full number of this group anointed by God’s holy spirit, or active force. (Galatians 6:16; Romans 11:25, 26; 1 John 2:20, 27) The book of Revelation shows that the total number of spiritual Israel is 144,000, all of whom are depicted with the Lamb, Jesus Christ, on heavenly Mount Zion. Along with Christ, they would be kings and priests in heaven. (Revelation 7:1-8; 14:1-4; 20:6) Included among them would be individuals who had been associated with the congregations in Thessalonica and elsewhere, whatever their racial or national background.—Acts 10:34, 35.

Before any faithful members of spiritual Israel could receive a heavenly reward, they would have to share a certain experience. Just as Jesus’ death on the torture stake preceded his resurrection to life in the heavens, so Christians with the heavenly hope must die before receiving their reward. (1 Corinthians 15:35, 36) That would be true of members of spiritual Israel living in the first century C.E. and of such individuals alive today.

After mentioning "the presence of the Lord," Paul pointed to the time when faithful spiritual Israelites who had died would receive their heavenly reward. He wrote: "The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first." (Verse 16) Therefore, once Jesus’ presence as King began, we would expect the heavenly resurrection to start, commencing with those of spiritual Israel who had already died as integrity keepers. (1 Corinthians 15:23) They now serve alongside Jesus in heaven. But what of the comparatively few anointed Christians still living on the earth? Do they await the rapture?

"Caught Away"—How?

After referring to anointed Christians who had died, Paul added: "Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord." (Verse 17) "The living" would be those alive during Christ’s presence. They would be "caught away" to meet the Lord Jesus. As in the case of faithful early Christians, death as a human is necessary for them to be united with Christ in heaven.—Romans 8:17, 35-39.

In writing to Christians in Corinth, Paul stated: "This I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption. Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep in death, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:50-52) Upon dying in faithfulness during Christ’s presence, each one of the remnant of spiritual Israel instantaneously receives his heavenly reward. "In the twinkling of an eye," he is resurrected as a spirit creature and "caught away" to meet Jesus and to serve as a coruler in the Kingdom of the heavens. But what about all others worshiping Jehovah? As the end of this wicked system approaches, will they also be caught away to heaven?

Survival—But Not by Rapture

Inasmuch as Jesus’ royal presence began in 1914, we are now deep into this world’s "time of the end." (Daniel 12:4) Paul warned: "As for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you. For you yourselves know quite well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. Whenever it is that they are saying: ‘Peace and security!’ then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape." (1 Thessalonians 5:1-3) But alert Christians will escape. How?

The cry "Peace and security!" is a precursor of the period Jesus called the "great tribulation." Describing "a great crowd" of faithful ones who have the hope of living eternally in an earthly paradise, the book of Revelation says: "These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Revelation 7:9, 14; Luke 23:43) No, theirs is not the prospect of a rapture. Rather, they have the hope of survival right here on the earth. To prepare for it, they must remain spiritually awake. How can you do this and survive the end of this system?

You need to ‘keep your senses and have on the breastplate of faith and love and as a helmet the hope of salvation.’ (1 Thessalonians 5:6-8) Now is the time to pay attention to God’s prophetic Word, the Bible. As the seconds tick away until the end of this system, heed Paul’s counsel: "Do not treat prophesyings with contempt. Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine." (1 Thessalonians 5:20, 21) Thus Jehovah’s Witnesses welcome you to their Kingdom Halls, where you can share with them in the study of Bible prophecies and other features of God’s inspired Word.

As you grow in accurate knowledge and faith, you will discern the outworking of Jehovah God’s purpose to rid the universe of his foes and restore the earth to a paradise. By exercising faith, you may also be among the survivors of the great tribulation, privileged to welcome back the millions who will be resurrected to life on earth. And what a joy it will be to live under God’s Kingdom in the hands of Jesus Christ and his corulers, who will have been ‘caught away to meet the Lord’ by being resurrected to life in the heavenly realm!

For obedient mankind in general, then, what is the true Scriptural hope? It is not a rapture. Instead, it is eternal life on earth under the rule of God’s Kingdom.

 

 

 

A Sweet-and-Bitter Message

Vision 6—Revelation 10:1–11:19

Subject: The vision of the little scroll; temple experiences; the blowing of the seventh trumpet

Time of fulfillment: From the enthronement of Jesus in 1914 to the great tribulation

THE second woe has been devastating. It has plagued Christendom and her leaders, "a third of the men," who are thus exposed as being spiritually dead. (Revelation 9:15) John must have wondered after that what the third woe could possibly bring. But wait! The second woe is not yet finished—not until we reach the point recorded at Revelation 11:14. Before then, John is to witness a turn of events in which he himself takes an active part. It begins with an awe-inspiring sight:

2 "And I saw another strong angel descending from heaven, arrayed with a cloud, and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as the sun, and his feet were as fiery pillars."—Revelation 10:1.

3 Who is this "strong angel"? It is evidently the glorified Jesus Christ in another role. He is arrayed with a cloud of invisibility, which reminds us of John’s earlier words about Jesus: "Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him." (Revelation 1:7; compare Matthew 17:2-5.) The rainbow upon his head reminds us of John’s earlier vision of Jehovah’s throne, with its "rainbow like an emerald in appearance." (Revelation 4:3; compare Ezekiel 1:28.) That rainbow suggested the serenity and peace surrounding God’s throne. In the same way, this rainbow on the angel’s head would identify him as a special peace messenger, Jehovah’s foretold "Prince of Peace."—Isaiah 9:6, 7.

4 The face of the strong angel was "as the sun." Earlier, in his vision of Jesus at the divine temple, John had noted that Jesus’ countenance was "as the sun when it shines in its power." (Revelation 1:16) Jesus, as "the sun of righteousness," shines forth with healing in his wings for the benefit of those who fear Jehovah’s name. (Malachi 4:2) Not only the face but also the feet of this angel are glorious, "as fiery pillars." His firm stance is that of the One to whom Jehovah has given "all authority . . . in heaven and on the earth."—Matthew 28:18; Revelation 1:14, 15.

5 John observes further: "And he had in his hand a little scroll opened. And he set his right foot upon the sea, but his left one upon the earth." (Revelation 10:2) Another scroll? Yes, but this time it is not sealed. With John, we can expect soon to see further thrilling disclosures. First, though, we are given the setting for what is to follow.

6 Let us return to the description of Jesus. His fiery feet are upon the earth and the sea, over which he now exercises full authority. It is just as stated in the prophetic psalm: "You [Jehovah] also proceeded to make him [Jesus] a little less than godlike ones, and with glory and splendor you then crowned him. You make him dominate over the works of your hands; everything you have put under his feet: small cattle and oxen, all of them, and also the beasts of the open field, the birds of heaven and the fish of the sea, anything passing through the paths of the seas." (Psalm 8:5-8; see also Hebrews 2:5-9.) This psalm was completely fulfilled in 1914, when Jesus was installed as King of God’s Kingdom and the time of the end began. Thus, what John sees here in vision applies since that year.—Psalm 110:1-6; Acts 2:34-36; Daniel 12:4.

The Seven Thunders

7 John’s contemplation of this strong angel is interrupted by the angel himself: "And he [the angel] cried out with a loud voice just as when a lion roars. And when he cried out, the seven thunders uttered their own voices." (Revelation 10:3) Such a powerful shout would catch John’s attention, confirming that Jesus is truly "the Lion that is of the tribe of Judah." (Revelation 5:5) John would also be aware that Jehovah, too, is sometimes said to "roar." Jehovah’s roaring prophetically heralds the regathering of spiritual Israel and the coming of the destructive "day of Jehovah." (Hosea 11:10; Joel 3:14, 16; Amos 1:2; 3:7, 8) Clearly, then, the lionlike cry of this strong angel forebodes similar great events for the sea and the earth. It calls on the seven thunders to speak.

8 John has previously heard thunders proceeding from the very throne of Jehovah. (Revelation 4:5) Back in David’s day, literal thunder was at times spoken of as "the voice of Jehovah." (Psalm 29:3) When Jehovah audibly proclaimed his purpose to glorify his own name in the days of Jesus’ earthly ministry, to many it sounded like thunder. (John 12:28, 29) Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that the ‘voices of the seven thunders’ are Jehovah’s own expression of his purposes. The fact that there were "seven" thunders suggests the completeness of what John heard.

9 But listen! Another voice sounds forth. It brings a command that must seem strange to John: "Now when the seven thunders spoke, I was at the point of writing; but I heard a voice out of heaven say: ‘Seal up the things the seven thunders spoke, and do not write them down.’" (Revelation 10:4) John must have been anxious to hear and record those thunderous messages, just as the John class today has waited eagerly for Jehovah to disclose his divine purposes for publication. Such revelations come only at Jehovah’s appointed time.—Luke 12:42; see also Daniel 12:8, 9.

The Finish of the Sacred Secret

10 Meantime, Jehovah has another commission for John. After the seven thunders have sounded, the strong angel speaks again: "And the angel that I saw standing on the sea and on the earth raised his right hand to heaven, and by the One who lives forever and ever, who created the heaven and the things in it and the earth and the things in it and the sea and the things in it, he swore: ‘There will be no delay any longer.’" (Revelation 10:5, 6) By whom does the strong angel swear? The glorified Jesus swears, not by himself, but by the highest Authority of all, Jehovah, the immortal Creator of the heavens and the earth. (Isaiah 45:12, 18) With this oath, the angel assures John that there will be no further delay on God’s part.

11 The Greek word here translated "delay" is khro´nos, which literally means "time." Some have thus felt that this declaration of the angel should be translated: "There will be no more time," as though time as we know it will end. But the word khro´nos here is used without a definite article. So it does not mean time in general but, rather, "a time" or "a period of time." In other words, there will be no further period of time (or, delay) by Jehovah. A Greek verb derived from khro´nos is used also at Hebrews 10:37, where Paul, quoting from Habakkuk 2:3, 4, writes that "he who is coming . . . will not delay."

12 "No delay any longer"—how those words appeal to the aging John class today! In what respect is there no delay? John informs us: "But in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to blow his trumpet, the sacred secret of God according to the good news which he declared to his own slaves the prophets is indeed brought to a finish." (Revelation 10:7) Jehovah’s time is here for bringing his sacred secret to its happy climax, with glorious success!

13 What is this sacred secret? It involves the seed first promised in Eden, which proved primarily to be Jesus Christ. (Genesis 3:15; 1 Timothy 3:16) It also has to do with the identity of the woman out of whom the Seed comes. (Isaiah 54:1; Galatians 4:26-28) Further, it takes in the secondary members of the seed class and the Kingdom in which the Seed reigns. (Luke 8:10; Ephesians 3:3-9; Colossians 1:26, 27; 2:2; Revelation 1:5, 6) The good news about this unique heavenly Kingdom must be preached in all the earth during the time of the end.—Matthew 24:14.

14 Surely, this is the very best of news. Yet, at Revelation 11:14, 15, the third woe is linked with the Kingdom. Why? Because for those of mankind who prefer Satan’s system of things, the trumpeting forth of the good news that the sacred secret of God is brought to a finish—that is, God’s Messianic Kingdom is here—is woeful news. (Compare 2 Corinthians 2:16.) It means that the world arrangement that they like so well is near to being destroyed. The voices of the seven thunders, containing such ominous storm warnings, become clearer and louder with the approach of Jehovah’s great day of vengeance.—Zephaniah 1:14-18.

The Opened Scroll

15 While John is waiting for the blowing of this seventh trumpet and the bringing to a finish of the sacred secret of God, he is given a further assignment: "And the voice that I heard out of heaven is speaking again with me and saying: ‘Go, take the opened scroll that is in the hand of the angel who is standing on the sea and on the earth.’ And I went away to the angel and told him to give me the little scroll. And he said to me: ‘Take it and eat it up, and it will make your belly bitter, but in your mouth it will be sweet as honey.’ And I took the little scroll out of the hand of the angel and ate it up, and in my mouth it was sweet as honey; but when I had eaten it up, my belly was made bitter. And they say to me: ‘You must prophesy again with regard to peoples and nations and tongues and many kings.’"—Revelation 10:8-11.

16 John’s experience is rather similar to that of the prophet Ezekiel during his exile in the land of Babylonia. He too was commanded to eat a scroll that tasted sweet in his mouth. But when it filled his stomach, it made him responsible to foretell bitter things for the rebellious house of Israel. (Ezekiel 2:8–3:15) The opened scroll that the glorified Jesus Christ gives to John is likewise a divine message. John is to preach regarding "peoples and nations and tongues and many kings." To feed upon this scroll is sweet for him because it is from a divine source. (Compare Psalm 119:103; Jeremiah 15:15, 16.) But he finds it bitter to digest because—as previously with Ezekiel—it foretells unsavory things for rebellious humans.—Psalm 145:20.

17 The ones who tell John to prophesy again are doubtless Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. John, although exiled on the island of Patmos, has already prophesied regarding peoples, nations, tongues, and kings through the information recorded so far in the book of Revelation. The word "again" means that he must write and publish the rest of the information recorded in the book of Revelation. But remember, John is here actually participating in the prophetic vision. What he records is, in fact, a prophecy to be fulfilled after 1914, when the strong angel takes up his position astride the earth and the sea. What, then, does this dramatic portrayal mean to the John class today?

The Little Scroll Today

18 What John sees foreshadows remarkably the experience of the John class at the beginning of the Lord’s day. Their understanding of Jehovah’s purposes, including the implication of the seven thunders, was then incomplete. Nevertheless, they had a deep interest in Revelation, and Charles Taze Russell had commented on many parts of it during his lifetime. After his death in 1916, many of his writings were collected and published in a book entitled The Finished Mystery. In time, though, this book proved to be unsatisfactory as an explanation of Revelation. The remnant of Christ’s brothers had to wait a while longer, until the visions started to be fulfilled, for an accurate understanding of that inspired record.

19 Like John, however, they were used by Jehovah even before the voices of the seven thunders were fully published. They had preached diligently for 40 years before 1914, and they had struggled to stay active during the first world war. They had proved to be the ones who, when the master arrived, were found to be giving the domestics food at the proper time. (Matthew 24:45-47) Thus, in 1919 they were the ones who were given the opened little scroll—that is, an open message to preach to mankind. Like Ezekiel they had a message for an unfaithful organization—Christendom—that claimed to be serving God but, in fact, was not. Like John they had to preach some more regarding "peoples and nations and tongues and many kings."

20 John’s eating up the scroll pictured that Jesus’ brothers accepted this assignment. It became a part of them to the extent that they were now identified with this portion of God’s inspired Word, drawing nourishment from it. But what they had to preach contained expressions of Jehovah’s judgments that were unpalatable to many of mankind. Indeed, it included the plagues foretold in Revelation chapter 8. It was sweet, however, to these sincere Christians to know those judgments and to realize that they were again being used by Jehovah in proclaiming them.—Psalm 19:9, 10.

21 In time, the message of this scroll also became sweet to the "great crowd . . . out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues" who were found to be sighing on account of the detestable things they saw being done in Christendom. (Revelation 7:9; Ezekiel 9:4) These, too, vigorously proclaim the good news, using sweet, gracious words to describe Jehovah’s marvelous provision for sheeplike Christians. (Psalm 37:11, 29; Colossians 4:6) But to opponents, this is bad news. Why? It means that the system in which they trust—and which may even have brought them a transitory satisfaction—must go. For them, the good news spells doom.—Philippians 1:27, 28; compare Deuteronomy 28:15; 2 Corinthians 2:15, 16.

+0
Re: God's Justice and Judgement...Part III
11/1/2007 3:15:49 AM
As far as Terry`s coment further back, we have crossed paths before Terry.
You may think that the Man Made Teachings of the Jehovah Witness Belief is truth and as you have often said in other forums, you are right and everybody else is wrong. I will say again to you, it is your truth!. There is no 100% way you can prove your Doctrines, however, you say every other Christan Church has been deceived by Satan. I will say certainly many have including yours. However (including the JWs ) I have spent 35 years with virtually every Christian Church and other beliefs.
I say we have our own truth, where we find it and we are all on a learning journey.
I fimly believe the revelations is a great book in the bible, as I believe almost all prophecies from the Old and New testament of the bible have come to pass.
We are in the end times in this cycle of earth as we know it.
There is nothing to fear for the believer. Our God is a just God and as it has been said, Jesus with return with the host of Angels and save those who have followed him.
Jesus said, I am the way and I am the light and no one shall come to the Father but through me. Not Jehovah.
We should be uniting and telling those who are not Christian to head the warnings that are happening now, such as disasters almost everyday some where in the world now. Droughts in Australia and people walking of the land because there is not enough water left to irrigate with. Thousands of children dying from hunger and aids. The list goes, on and on.
Wake up and see the signs that are happening now.
We are fast becoming a world with more issues than ever before and the end of the world, as we know it, is now closer  than ever before.
Keith.
+0


facebook
Like us on Facebook!