Hi Neil, Thank you for your kind words regarding my intelligence and education. I only hope that the little that I have is useful in helping others to live better live. It would take a lot more than a post here on Adlandpro to explain to you why I believe the way I do. After reading your post, I think it would also take more than a simple post to explain why I differentiate between most people who call themselves Christian and those who actually are Christian. The bottom line is that to be a Christian is defined to be one who is a follower of Jesus Christ. In order to figure out what that means, one must read what Jesus Christ said. Note also that the name, Christian, was not used by followers of Christ, themselves, first. It was a name given to them, just as the name, Anabaptist, now shortened to Baptist, was a name given by the Catholic church to those who baptized those formerly baptized by the Catholic church AFTER they put their faith in Jesus Christ. (It means rebaptizer.) As far as the information that it contained in the Bible: I will not argue with you on the point of all the killing in the Bible, nor will I likely argue with you on many subjects you might bring up from the Bible. Those who deny what the Bible actually says are simply being foolish. What is, is, and what has happened has happened. The bottom line, as I think I mentioned in a post some time ago; that is, the starting point from which all else is examined, is that IF an eternal, all powerful, creator god exists, then it does not matter one tiny bit what we think of him or what he does. Denying him will not make him go away, nor will judging him improve our lot or make him change. I have put my faith in this God that you choose to deny, and am very comfortable with that faith. It fits the data I see all around me very well, and makes amazing sense out of things that science has struggled with for years. Incidently, science has NOT empirically proven evolution, any more than Christians have empirically proven the existence of a creator God. In fact, science cannot, even under very controlled (not random accidents) circumstances, recreate life. They have loudly trumpeted success in forming some extremely elemental molecules that are part of the building blocks of life, but even that led no further, and again, was under very controlled laboratory conditions. There is a joke that some scientists came to God and challenged him to a man making contest. The challenge was accepted, and the scientists immediately reached for the raw materials out of the ground to start making a man. They were quickly told to get their own dirt! You have put your faith in science, which has proven over and over again to make mistakes. Some scientists even make the statement that what they know is the truth today will not necessarily be the truth tomorrow. What that statement means is twofold. Firstly, they are admitting that scientists make mistakes. Big deal. So do I! Secondly, they are saying that either absolute truth does not exist (a paradox), or that no one can know for sure what is absolutely true (a cop-out.) The bottom line Neil, is this. If you're right, you have nothing to worry about, and neither do I (although Paul said that I am among the most miserable of men.) However, if I'm right, then you have a very big problem. God bless, Dave

Sorry Dave, You are in serious error. Science has not proven evolution to those to whom no amount of proof will ever be sufficient. It is totally impossible to prove anything to those who either refuse to learn sufficient information (facts) and/or who deny any facts which prove them wrong. And you know this is true as you see it in nearly every, if not every, anti-Iraq war protester there is. They do not care if there is over whelming proof Al Qaeda had links to Saddam going back to at least 1995 or the CIA knows of nearly 100 contacts between Saddam's regime and bin Laden and his underlings. They do not care Saddam's regime gave safe haven, money and other support to Terrorists who had killed Americans. Or they trained, funded and supplied arms to terrorists who were killing innocent people all around the world. Or WMD were moved to Syria just before and during the war or we have found drums of Sarin Gas (A WMD) in IRAQ! Or proof of other bad things Saddam's' regime did against the US. Nope, they just deny the facts. Of course, to the rest of us, their denial of the over whelming proof of Saddam's link to terrorists and his own terrorism really makes them appear to be both illogical, irrational, ignorant and not very bright. (Which I think very accurately describes them.) Those who say human evolution is not both a Proven Theory and a Proven Fact do exactly the same thing. They simply deny all the proof which exists. They even deny the proof of evolution which is right there IN THEIR OWN BODIES! For example, when a human is in it's fetus state, it has GILL SLITS! We humans have CANINE Teeth we use to eat meat! (FYI for all the less than knowledgeable Vegetarians out there, eating meat is WHAT MADE US HUMAN! Otherwise we would still be running around Africa trying to not be some carnivore's did din. ) We also have TONSILS, an APPENDIX and a TAIL BONE which we NO longer have any use for! Why do we have organs we no longer need? Simple, it is EVOLUTION at work. And someday, if we humans do not eliminated ourselves first, we will no longer have any trace of those organs. Yep, the PROOF of evolution it right in our own bodies and yet, many Christians are so programmed, they will never accept human evolution being a fact no matter how much proof is presented to them. Of course, to the rest of us, their denial of the over whelming proof of evolution really makes them look both illogical and ignorant. That said, at least I can understand why some Christians do not accept evolution as a proven fact. After all, most of them, have been very carefully programmed to believe as they do. On the other hand, there is NO rational, logical or intelligent reason why the anti-war scum think as they do. As some may ask why I consider them to be "scum" it is because the are giving both AID and COMFORT to those who are fighting, wounding, torturing and killing our troops. Yep, their actions are giving Aid and Comfort to the same one's who've been killing Americans for over 25 years! And I am supposed to be nice to these ignorant critens? Give me a break!

Hi Neil,

This is just a brief post relating to your faith in evolution.

While there are many things in this wide, wide world that you are
very well versed in, the flaws in evolution are very obviously not
one of them.

That said, you are in good company.  Many very brilliant people
all over the world have been blindly ignoring the flaws due to an
overwhelming desire for something coming from nothing.

To pinpoint just one error:  evolution does not and cannot explain
how it happens in a way that stands up to scrutiny.  In order for an
organism to evolve, it must mutate.  However, the mutation must
be beneficial.  It must also be in unison with several other mutations
or it will hinder, rather than benefit.

Imagine, for example, if an organism suddenly developed a retina
with no lens or pupil, or if a lens developed with no retina or pupil.
Why would such an organism have any advantage that would allow
it to survive better than its contemporaries?

Your information is also incorrect.  Humans do not, in fact, ever
have gill slits, even in the earliest embryonic stages.  That was
part of a widely propagated fraud developed by Dr. Ernst Haeckel
in 1866.  Here is what is stated in a modern medical textbook:
"The pharyngeal arches and clefts are frequently referred to as
branchial arches and branchial clefts in analogy with the lower
vertebrates, [but] since the human embryo never has gills called
"brachia," the term pharyngeal arches and clefts has been adopted
for this book."  {Langman, Jan, Medical Embryology (Baltimore: 
Williams and Wilkins, 1975), p 262}

It may also be of further interest to you for your continued research
to study the fact that not one "missing link" has ever been discovered,
nor have the thousands and thousands of expected "in between"
fossils.

I will also address your comment about Christians being programmed
to not accept evolution.  First of all, you are quite incorrect if you
include the majority of people who consider themselves to be
Christian.  Most of them readily accept evolution as a fact and
consider those of us who do not to be, at the very least, just a
little bit strange.

Most of the Christians I know who do NOT accept evolution as
fact are those who were raised on evolution in Non-Christian
families, thoroughly brainwashed by the school system into
blindly believing evolution, and at some point, found out that
they had been lied to all their lives, put their faith in Jesus Christ
as their personal Saviour, and began to discover that there
ARE answers that don't crumble under even the most rigorous
examination.

Evolution, on the other hand, try as I have tried to find solid
evidence that supports it, just gets worse and worse the more
I study it.  In fact, evolution will NOT STAND close and honest
examination.  That, my friend, is what you call a FACT.

God bless,

Dave

Hi, Dave and Neil,

So these hoary old topics raise their heads once again.

I agree with virtually everything Dave says except that I cannot believe that the God, so beloved of Christians, would reject a non-Christian who, none the less, lived a christian life. The belief in the God of Christianity is one with many facets - only one of those facets is Christianity.

As for evolution, it cannot, and never will, be proved. It simply does not exist. All that you speak of, Neil, is only a refinement within a specific genus of a specific species. None of them indicate anything that would lead to an entirely new genus, let alone speci! As Dave said, not a single link has been discovered between any related species. Darwin's theory fitted the knowledge and ideas of his day but even he never said that his theory could be proven - only that it was a good fit to the perceived facts.

As for your claims about what was found in or removed from Iraq before the lamentable invasion, where is the proof of those? If any lethal gas was found, don't you think that an administration so desperate to justify their heavy handed, illegal actions would have screamed the news from the roof tops? Nobody in the administration has even tried, since the monstrous farce started, to justify or prove anything. Even Tony Blurr tried to recant on his lies once he discovered he had been grossly missinformed - probably the only time he ever did.

The Old Coot 

LOOK WEBSTGER I AM SICK AND TIRED OF THOSE WHO ARE TOO DUMD THEY DO NOT READ MY FORUM ON IRAQ WHICH ANSWERS THE QUESTIONS ON IRAQ! YOU CALLING THE UN, FORMER HIGH RANKING IRAQIS AND AMERICAN SPECIAL FORCES OFFICERS LIARS? CALL MY FRIEND CHRIS ONE AND I HOPE HE KICKS YOUR ASS FROM HERE TO CHINA! THE TERRORISTS IN IRAQ HAVE BEEN USING POSION GAS IN THEIR IUD'S POSION GAS IS A WMD! AS FOR EVOLUTION, A. Science has not proven evolution to those to whom no amount of proof will ever be sufficient. It is totally impossible to prove anything to those who either refuse to learn sufficient information (facts) and/or who deny any facts which prove them wrong. B. IT HAS BEEN PROVED TO THE VAST MAJORITY OF HIGHLY INTELLIGENT AND HIGHLY EDUCATED PEOPLE! BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE DO NOT THINK HAS BEEN PROVED MEANS NOTHING! (OTHER THAN THEY ARE RATHER CLUELESS ON THE SUBJECT!) END OF DAMN STORY!