Hello Debra

   Thank You, for stopping by and for your kind words. It is nice when you know that there are people who appreciate the little things you do.

    I guess part of the reason I do these things is because of my past history of depression. I understand life from a perspective that differs from that of most people. I know what it is like to feel different and to feel like nobody could really understand me. I spent most of my life going through the cycles of depression without ever even knowing that anything was wrong. For the longest time I thought that life was just supposed to be mostly sad and that I really didn't deserve anything better than what I had.  As I got older, I began to realize that life really could be much happier and a whole lot simpler. I realized that there were things I could do to change my life and the lives of those around me. I was very fortunate to have come in contact with some people who did understand me and knew how to really make a difference in peoples lives. For the most part, these were people who had lived much of their lives in the same fear and isolation that I had been living in. People who were fortunate enough to get the kind of help they needed and were able to turn their sadness into a kind of joy that they could not contain in their own world. Once people find this special freedom in their lives they have a tendency to want to share their experience and their joy with others.

    During the 25 or so years that I was going in and out of treatment, I learned a lot. A lot about me, a lot about life and a lot about the people around me in my daily life. It is really just a matter of wanting to give back to the world, at least some of which was given to you by the world.

    Just this little forum about narcissism for example. Someone just might read this forum and realize that maybe, they are a bit narcissistic.  Then they can read a little about how to maybe make some changes in their daily lives that might make their life a little better. Or, maybe someone who reads this forum realizes that someone they love and care about is narcissistic by nature and they might be able to understand that person a little better and maybe help them overcome some of the problems in their lives.

   Life to me is kind of a balancing thing. If I make it a point to give at least as much as I take everyday, then when I die, I won't owe anything. It all balanced out. LOL

Hi William,

       You are remarkable. After everything that you have been through, you still feel the need to reach out and try to help others. There aren't many people in this world that can say that.

     I don't think you have to worry too much about balancing. Sounds to me like you are doing one heck of a job.

    It is a pleasure to know you, William.

Your Good Friend

Deborah

Hello Debra

     Thank you once again for your kind words but, in all honesty, I really don't believe that I am doinf anything so special. I have found that many people who have faced adversity in their lives and have managed to overcome it , are more than happy to offer a little help to those who are still struggling. In fact, I'll bet if you look back into yor recent past, you will see where you too have offered to help someone in need. It's just that some of us have more time than others to be able to do this.

Hello Everybody

    As you all know, sometimes people develope their own ideas about anothers intentions when they are trying to do something constructive and beneficial. This forum for instance, could be construed as being durrogatory in nature towards someone that might think it is being directed towards them. Kind of a sneaky attack on ones character. WEll, this is exactly how a narcissist would interpret this forum. They can only see things in terms of how they relate to themselves. They have a tendency to believe that everything that goes on around them is either directed at them personally or because of them.

   In case this confusion exists as the result of my posting this forum, I would like to express my true intentions for posting this. First, If someone who is reading this forum recognizes that he or she has some of these traits, it might be just what that person needs to inspire them to face their own reality and perhaps even seek help. If someone who reads this , recognizes some of these traits in someone that they know and care about, it might inspire them to try to help that person recognize their own reality and perhaps even,,,seek out help. Yes, it really is that simple.

Note: If this article is not completely visable on your screen, click on reply and it should then appear as complete. Here are the latest updates for billyv5@yahoo.com "SANCTUARY FOR THE ABUSED" - 1 new article Trapped in the Mirror: Adult Children of Narciss...   Trapped in the Mirror: Adult Children of Narcissists in their Struggle for Self by Dr. Elan Golomb (book available at Amazon.com) excerpts: "People who are relatively free of narcissistic traits (most of us have some) do not attempt to place themselves above others. They are unconcerned with such comparisons. They stay in touch with their feelings and try to do their personal best. Their standards are internal and realistic since they have a good idea of who they are and what they can accomplish (such objectivity is not insignificant). They are not free of idealistic wishes and dreams. "Narcissists are wholly different. They unconsciously deny an unstated and intolerably poor self-image through inflation. They turn themselves into glittering figures of immense grandeur surrounded by psychologically impenetrable walls. The goal of this self-deception is to be impervious to greatly feared external criticism and to their own roiling sea of doubts. "This figure of paradox needs to be regarded as perfect by all. To achieve this, he or she constructs an elaborate persona (a social mask which is presented to the world). The persona needs an appreciative audience to applaud it. If enough people do so, the narcissist is relieved that no one can see through his disguise. The persona is a defensive schema to hide behind, like the false-front stores on a Western movie set. When you peer behind the propped-up wall, you find . . . nothing. Similarly, behind the grandiose parading, the narcissist feels empty and devoid of value. "Because his life is organized to deny negative feelings about himself and to maintain an illusion of superiority, the narcissist's family is forcibly conscripted into supporting roles. They have no other option if they wish to get along with him. His mate must be admiring and submissive to keep the marriage going and his children will automatically mold themselves into any image that is projected upon them. "Here the tragedy begins. A narcissist cannot see his children as they are but only as his unconscious needs dictate. He does not question why his children are incredibly wonderful (better than anyone else's) or intolerably horrible (the worst in all respects) or why his view of them ricochets from one extreme to another with no middle ground. It is what they are. "When he is idealizing them, he sees their talents as mythic, an inflation that indicates they are being used as an extension of his grandiose self. When he hates them and finds their characteristics unacceptable, he is projecting hated parts of himself onto them. Whether idealizing or denigrating, he is entirely unaware that what he sees is a projection and that his views are laying a horrible burden on his child." _________________________________ "The offspring of narcissists grow up fulfilling their assigned roles. They may sense that they are in a state of falsehood, but do not know what to do about feelings of nonauthenticity. They try all the harder to become what they are supposed to be, as if their feelings of uneasiness come from an improper realization of their role. If their parents see them as miserably deficient, from the shape of their bodies to the power of their minds, that is what they become. If they were portrayed to themselves as great muckamucks, especially if they have innate ability to fulfill a powerful role, they become the movers and shakers of society. "At heart, children of narcissists, raised up or cast down by the ever-evaluating parent, feel themselves to be less than nothing because they must 'be' something to earn their parents' love. Conditional love offers no support for the inner self. It creates people who have no personal sense of substance or worth. Nourished on conditional love, children of narcissists become conditional. They find themselves unreal." _____________________________ "As a child, the narcissist-to-be found his essential self rejected by his narcissistic parent. The wounds of the parent are a template for the wounding of the child. Each narcissistic parent in each generation repeats the crime that was perpetrated against him. The crime is non-acceptance. The narcissist is more demanding and deforming of the child he identifies with more strongly, although all his children are pulled into his web of subjectivity. How can he accept offspring who are the product of his own unconsciously despised self? "The narcissist-to-be turns away from a world he perceives as devoid of nurturance and love (since a mother’s care gives the child its first version of the world). He withdraws into grandiose fantasies to shield himself from profound feelings of unworthiness caused by the fact that his mother does not really love him. Grandiosity permits him to believe that he is complete and perfect unto himself, thus shielding him from his secret sense that he is a ravening beast, ready to murder others in order to eat and survive. The food of this beast is admiration. "The narcissistic mother, caretaker of the child’s earliest years, is grandiose, chronically cold but overprotective. She invades her child’s autonomy and manipulates him to conform to her wishes. She rejects all about him that she finds objectionable, putting him in the anxiety-ridden position of losing her affection if he expresses dissatisfaction. She responds to his baby rages and fussing with anxiety, anger, or withdrawal. He becomes unable to cope with the ugly feelings that threaten to erupt and destroy the bond between him and his mother, the bond he depends on for survival. "His mother’s grandiosity models a way out of his dilemma. She places him on a common throne, sharing the rarefied air of her greatness. By appropriating and embellishing the aura of specialness in which she has enveloped him he can create a grandiose fantasy about himself to escape to. This fantasy eventually crystallizes into a psychic structure we call the grandiose self. A new narcissist is born. "For all his air of self-sufficiency, the narcissist is full of interpersonal needs. He is more needy than most people who feel they have something good inside of them. If he is to survive, he must find a way to get his needs met without acknowledging the independent existence of the person off whom he wants to feed. To admit that a person is necessary to him gets him in touch with feelings of deficiency, which plummet him into intolerable emptiness, jealousy, and rage. To avoid this experience, he inhabits a one-person world. Either he exists and other people are extinguished or vice versa. In his mind, he is center stage and other people are mere shadows beyond the proscenium. This solution creates a new conundrum: ‘How can I get fed without acknowledging the feeder?’ The solution is to dissect people and to turn them partially into objects, to make them inanimate. A person comes to represent a need-fulfilling function or an organ like a breast, vagina, or penis. There is no overall person to consider. "Since he is not psychotic and totally out of touch with reality, he is occasionally forced to recognize the presence of a benefactor. The emotional incursion of such an idea is warded off by demeaning the gift or the person who has given it. If a gift is unworthy he doesn’t have to feel gratitude. Not to say that he does not at times proffer thanks. A narcissist can be quite charming when he wishes to impress, but his words are not deeply felt. "He usually does not see the need to go to such lengths with his family. They belong to him and are supposed to cater to his needs. His children are particularly crushed by his lack of recognition for their attempts at pleasing him since he is the main figure in their world. Adding insult to injury, they can always count on his criticism when what is offered falls below his standards. "Despite his bubble of grandiosity, the narcissist is remarkably thin-skinned, forever taking offense and feeling mistreated, especially when people appear to have eliminated the extras in their response to him. Less than special immediately implies that someone may be thinking the emperor is naked, precisely what he fears. He is enraged whenever the aching corns of his insecurities are stepped on. "A narcissist tends to have transient social relationships since few wish to abide by her rules. She has quick enthusiasms, business associates but few friends. Her closest are other narcissists who keep a comfortable distance while exchanging gestures of mutual admiration. Neither makes emotional demands on the other. "In a mate, if she does not choose a fellow narcissist, she will cohabit with a person who feels inadequate and who needs to hide in a relationship. This suits her well since she doesn't want to recognize the existence of another being. Often, her mate is the child of a narcissist, already indoctrinated to regard exploitation and disregard as love." ____________________________________ "The grandiose narcissist in her automat world may not feel the emptiness of her life, although her narcissistic traits cause suffering in all those with whom she has intimate contact. She only comes to recognize that something is wrong (not necessarily with herself) when the environment no longer supports her grand illusions and she fails to live up to expectations of greatness. At this time she may become depressed and seek psychotherapy to relieve the pain." ______________________________________ "The narcissist attacks separateness in everyone with whom he must have a relationship. Either they fit into his ego-supporting mold or they are extruded from his life. Narcissistic rage and aggression are based on fear. His entitlement to absolute control over others must go unchallenged. "Although the overall picture of narcissism can be readily understood, small details of [narcissistic] behavior are inexplicable. There is no rational explanation for what a completely self-centered person will do. What they themselves say about it later bears no relation to the original motivation. They often surrender to overpowering impulses based on distorted, one-sided, and limited perceptions." _______________________________________ "Often, an initial move for independence involves joining a group. Membership in a group represents opposition to the parent. A narcissistic parent wants to determine her child’s style and life objectives. Her child wants separation but, fearing to stand alone, joins an all-encompassing group as a halfway move to freedom. He thinks that membership expresses his individuality and cites group laws as buttressing independence from the parent. But such membership often limits his search for a self that needs separation to exist. In order not to be immersed in his parent’s narcissistic net he buries himself in a group that operates like a narcissistic family and requires identity with members’ goals and ethos. It is a style of life that reinforces personal nonbeing." • Email to a friend • Search http://us.f431.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter?MsgId=6321_17012960_2763077_1801_18831_0_496739_45049_3361192523&Idx=11&YY=34003&y5beta=yes&y5beta=yes&inc=50&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=&head=&box=Inbox

Hello Everybody

    Here is an article and a discusion about one facet of narcissistic behaviour that is seldom discused.  Obsessive thinking. the inability of one to controll what they are thinking by trying not to " think about it"

    Example, for the rest of the day, make it a point to not think about yellow elephants with huge ,pink polka dots. Then, if you would, come here tomorrow and tell us how successful you were in not thinking about pink elephants with huge yellow polka dots.

    Believe it or not, the conversation that will persue , may have some totally unecpected religious conotations that you may not have ever thought about before. No, we aren't going to change this topic to religion. We will just be contrinuing our discusion of narcissism and it's impact on society.

SANCTUARY FOR THE ABUSED" - 1 new article

"While grief is fresh, every attempt to divert o...

"While grief is fresh, every attempt to divert only irritates. You must wait till it be digested, and then amusement will dissipate the remains of it." Samuel Johnson

N = Narcissistic Abuser

"I decided to run a medline search and came up with the following. It seems the good news is that once we demystify the N situation (which can be accomplished by reading and learning as much as we can) that we then experience a lessening of the 'obsessive-thinking' problem. I hope this helps some of you because we all seem to go through and will help validate your own experiences. Also, you will note from the excerpts I have copied from the abstracts that attempting to 'not think about it' actually increases the problem.

Address for medline searches - I used the parameters of 'obsessive thinking'

"According to recent research, deliberate suppression of unwanted thoughts may result in a paradoxical increase in their frequency."

White bears and other elusive intrusions. Assessing the relevance of thought suppression for obsessional phenomena. Purdon, C. Clark, D.A. Behav Modif 2000 Jul;24(3):425-53

"Research has shown that attempts to suppress a thought can cause an increase in the frequency of the thought. These paradoxical effects of thought suppression play a key role in cognitive-behavioral models of several emotional disorders."
Paradoxical effects of thought suppression: a meta-analysis of controlled studies. Abramowitz JS, Tolin DF, Street GP. Clin Psychol Rev 2001 Jul;21(5):683-703

"It is proposed that obsessions are caused by catastrophic misinterpretations of the significance of one's thoughts (images, impulses). The obsessions persist as long as these misinterpretations continue and diminish when the misinterpretations are weakened."
A cognitive theory of obsessions. Rachman S. Behav Res Ther 1997 Sep;35(9):793-802

The White Bear reference seems to be the name of a psychological questionnaire used by psychiatrists to determine obsessive thinking levels. It does get better with time and with understanding the whole N problem and its significance and impact in our lives. So, the upshot of all this is to read and learn and try to cope with the problem and understand it fully.

(REPLY 1) I would guess it takes a lot of time for cognitive restructuring to take place, and the thinking and re-thinking helps with minimizing the misperceptions and aids in assimilation of "the new knowledge".

I really like the proposal: "It is proposed that obsessions are caused by catastrophic misinterpretations of the significance of one's thoughts (images,impulses). The obsessions persist as long as these misinterpretations continue and diminish when the misinterpretations are weakened."
That makes sense to me. I had people tell me to just stop thinking about it, but I had to think about it until I was comfortable. The better I understood it, the less stress I had. Obsessional thinking really helped.

One thing I say to explain my obsessional thinking is that my experience with my N was such a catastrophic failure, that I was forced to do a failure analysis, a re-thinking of the events and my misperceptions. I wondered how I could have made such a blunder in life. It took a lot of thinking to fix myself. I do not want to repeat that lesson.

(REPLY 2) I have been trying for months to "thought stop" and to "get over it!". I have been having obsessive thoughts about the N and the other woman, playing and replaying fantasies based on my anger and rage at the N.
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