Stephen: This story has been dribbling out in bits over the past week, but now seems to have come to a head following a legal statement by whistleblower Dr William Thompson, who previously worked for the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention – an organisation that’s currently hyping up the threat of the Ebola virus outbreak.

Dr Thompson is claiming that critical data - showing the MMR vaccine (for measles, mumps and rubella) increased the risk of autism – was omitted from a 2004 article he and others wrote in the journal ‘Pediatrics’. Thanks to Judy, Anthony, Sharon and others for their tips to various parts of this story.

By Mike Adams, Natural News, August 27, 2014 – http://tinyurl.com/jwl8k9t

BREAKING: CDC whistleblower William Thompson has now gone public with a statement posted on the website of the law firm representing him, Morgan Verkamp LLC

The statement opens with a blatant admission of scientific fraud at the CDC:

My name is William Thompson. I am a Senior Scientist with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, where I have worked since 1998. I regret that my coauthors and I omitted statistically significant information in our 2004 article published in the journal Pediatrics. The omitted data suggested that African American males who received the MMR vaccine before age 36 months were at increased risk for autism. Decisions were made regarding which findings to report after the data were collected, and I believe that the final study protocol was not followed.

In the letter, (see the full statement reprinted below), Dr. Thompson confirms the fact that he had multiple phone conversations with Brian Hooker and that the CDC has not been honest about the risks associated with MMR vaccines.

The letter then goes on to repeat the typical vaccine propaganda of our time: all vaccines are miracle medicine, the CDC is highly professional, there has been no retaliation against him and so on. Intelligent readers will of course take all these statements with a grain of salt, understanding just how much political and legal pressure has no doubt been exerted onto Dr. Thompson up to this point.

The relevant portion of Dr. Thompson’s statement is contained in the first paragraph. It is an open admission of scientific fraud at the CDC, and the admission of this by William Thompson is an historic moment for our world.

Dr. Thompson’s public statement follows the release of secret emails by Natural News

Dr. William Thompson chose to release his public statement less than one day after Natural News published the second in a series of once-secret emails between Dr. Thompson and his CDC colleagues.

The release of those emails may have been pivotal in Dr. Thompson’s choice to go public with his own statement. The vaccine establishment, which immediately and predictably accused Natural News of fabricating the two emails, is now backpedaling as rapidly as possible with the full knowledge that Dr. Thompson’s public statement affirms and supports the authenticity of those emails. Natural News, in other words, was instrumental in breaking this historical story about medical fraud at the highest levels of the CDC. (Credit is also due to many other independent media organizations and alternative journalists who pounded this story from day one.)

Those two emails are available here:

February 2nd, 2004 letter to Dr. Julie Gerberding

October 18, 2002 letter to Melinda Wharton, Coleen Boyle and others, where William Thompson announces he is hiring his own lawyer and implies a CDC cover-up of a D.O.J. investigation:

MMR vaccine fraud at the CDC now admitted by a key CDC scientist

There are four astonishing realizations that now come to mind from Dr. Thompson’s public statement:

Firstly, this admission proves beyond any question that the reporting of this fraud by the alternative media has been factual and true.

It also underscores the astonishing fact that the alternative media alone broke this story, pre-empting the New York Times, Washington Post and every Pulitzer-prize-winning journalist in the world.

The tables have now turned. It is solely the alternative media which is now breaking most of the really important investigative stories of our time. Does this mean alternative media journalists will now be nominated for Pulitzer prizes? Don’t hold your breath on that one…

Secondly, it also proves that CDC scientists did in fact conspire to alter the study data in order to bury significant results linking the MMR vaccine to heightened autism risk in African-American children. This is now openly admitted by a key author of the 2004 study cited by the CDC as “proof” that vaccines are absolutely safe.

Thirdly, it now demands that the 2004 study referenced in all this be immediately retracted. This is an open admission of scientific fraud. Any failure to retract the study will now only underline the depth of the fraud and the abandonment of scientific principles by the CDC and the science journal itself.

Fourthly, all this also reveals that the entire world owes a massive and immediate apology to Dr. Andrew Wakefield whose career and reputation have been destroyed by the very people who conspired to commit scientific fraud at the CDC. We must all now call upon the media to run headlines like, “Dr. Wakefield Vindicated: MMR Vaccine Fraud Confirmed.”

Dr. Thompson condemns the CDC’s secrecy regarding vaccine risks

What’s also very interesting about this statement by William Thompson is his implication that the CDC knowingly hides the truth about vaccine risks from the public. He says:

There have always been recognized risks for vaccination and I believe it is the responsibility of the CDC to properly convey the risks associated with receipt of those vaccines.

There are three crucial points to understand here:

#1) Vaccines ALWAYS come with risks.

#2) The CDC has a moral obligation to communicate these risks to the public.

#3) (Implied) The CDC has FAILED to communicate these risks to the public.

I agree with all three of these points, by the way. That Dr. Thompson would feel these are so important to include in his one and only public statement on this matter underscores the importance of what he’s trying to communicate. What Dr. Thompson is saying is that the CDC is hiding the truth about vaccine dangers from the public. And that’s what I’ve also been saying all along.

See, the modern scientific delusion about vaccines has been predicated on the belief that vaccines only offer benefits while imposing zero risks. This is the anti-science quackery which is brazenly repeated by the CDC, vaccine manufacturers, doctors and health organizations.

A more honest analysis of vaccines would have to conclude that vaccines come with some level of inherent risk of harm and death. Scientists can argue all day about the size of such risks, but no rational person can ever honestly say such risks are zero.

And yet the position of the CDC has always been that vaccines are “magically safe” as if they possess magical powers that prohibit all harm. This position is ridiculous at every level, yet it is the official stance of the CDC.

This is why no one trusts the CDC: they lie as a matter of policy

It is this ridiculous, quack science position which discredits the CDC and the entire vaccine industry. For vaccine promoters to lie to the public and say vaccines have “zero risk of harm” is to admit they are all quacks and liars. It would be far more believable and ethical to say something like, “For every 100,000 children who receive these vaccines, 250 will become autistic and 15 will die in a coma.” (Numbers invented here for illustration purposes only. These are not actual numbers from any particular study, in case you were wondering.)

If the CDC were honest with the public, then parents could make informed decisions about what level of risk they wish to undergo. Is it worth vaccinating a child against measles if the risk of that child becoming autistic is 1 in 100,000? How about 1 in 1,000? What if it’s actually more like 1 in 250?

The public has never been allowed to know these numbers because people like Dr. William Thompson conspired to commit scientific fraud and bury these numbers. And that’s the point in all this. That’s the smoking gun which has now been revealed, thanks almost entirely to the independent (alternative) media and our relentless dedication to real investigative journalism.

There is no such thing as “absolute safety” in any medical procedure; not even in something as incredibly safe as therapeutic massage. But the sad fact that the CDC, the vaccine industry and the vaccine zealots have pushed the absurd delusion that vaccines are “absolutely safe” — i.e. they present ZERO risk — is an admission of scientific quackery (or scientific illiteracy).

This is why the vaccine industry has lost the public relations war on vaccines: because everybody knows the CDC is lying all the time. How do you know when the CDC is lying? When their lips are moving.

Professional criminals at the CDC: It’s all business

The funny thing about all this is that here, as the editor of Natural News, I’m not even an opponent of the theory of immunization! If vaccines were honestly marketed with credible descriptions of their inherent risks, thereby allowing parents to make informed decisions about those risks, there would probably be very little resistance against them. (And if all the toxic preservatives and adjuvants were removed from vaccines, there might not be any resistance at all.)

The CDC, through precisely the kind of scientific fraud Dr. Thompson has admitted to, has become its own worst enemy by actively deciding to lie to the American public for decades through the deliberate commission of scientific fraud, pushing a quack science delusion which has now been shattered by one of its own scientists.

Now we know the CDC is a cabal of liars and criminals, even if they are “professional” criminals as Dr. Thompson laments in his public statement when he says, “My colleagues and supervisors at the CDC have been entirely professional since this matter became public.” Bank robbers and kidnappers can also be “professional,” because just like the vaccine industry, it’s all business! Nothing personal!

Why Dr. Thompson should be granted immunity and called to testify before Congress

Personally, I want to thank Dr. Thompson for breaking the conspiracy of silence and going public with his open admission of scientific fraud at the CDC. I believe Dr. Thompson operates with a far higher ethical and moral standard than most of his colleagues, and I believe he is now operating in crisis mode to protect his own life while under the threat of professional persecution or worse.

It is now a matter of public record that Dr. William Thompson and his colleagues at the CDC knowingly and willfully conspired to commit scientific fraud in order to hide from the public the truth about the dangers of MMR vaccines. This fact is now irrefutable and stands as a milestone in the history of corruption and criminality at the CDC.

The fact that Dr. Thompson is still a “fan” of vaccines only brings more weight to his admission that vaccine fraud was committed at the CDC. If anything, Dr. Thompson has every reason to disclaim any such fraud ever took place. In fact, I half expected Dr. Thompson to come out with a carefully-engineered statement claiming he never talked to Brian Hooker, never wrote the emails we released and never committed any fraud at all.

And yet, to his credit, he has honestly and openly admitted to the scientific fraud in which he participated. For that reason alone, I believe Dr. William Thompson should be commended for his honesty. At the same time, he should also be called before a congressional investigations committee and asked a long series of additional questions about what really went on at the CDC.

In preparation for that testimony, Dr. Thompson should, I believe, be granted legal immunity from government prosecution for his role in committing the vaccine fraud we now know took place.

I realize that some in the autism community might disagree with my view on this particular point. Some would say that Dr. Thompson should be charged with felony crimes and prosecuted by the government. Although I can very easily understand the anger and frustration that would lead many people to suggest such actions, I personally believe it is far more valuable for us all if Dr. Thompson is granted immunity and encouraged to testify under oath so that the true depth of the scientific fraud at the CDC can be made part of the official congressional record. If Dr. Thompson truly believes in CDC transparency as his letter suggests, he will be happy to testify before Congress.

After all, Dr. Thompson is merely a small fish in a very large crime ring. The real ring leaders are right now getting away scot-free. They are the ones who need to be brought to justice and prosecuted in a court of law.

RT 8-29-14… “‘Anything US touches turns into Libya or Iraq’: Top Putin quotes at youth forum”

Thanks to Robin.

From War Is a Crime – August 27, 2014 – http://tinyurl.com/olsrqwc

Dear President Obama:

As religious communities, leaders, and academics, we write to express our deep concern over the recent escalation of U.S. military action in Iraq.

While the dire plight of Iraqi civilians should compel the international community to respond in some way, U.S. military action is not the answer. Lethal weapons and airstrikes will not remove the threat to a just peace in Iraq.

As difficult as it might be, in the face of this great challenge, we believe that the way to address the crisis is through long-term investments in supporting inclusive governance and diplomacy, nonviolent resistance, sustainable development, and community-level peace and reconciliation.

Pope Francis has affirmed that “peacemaking is more courageous than warfare,” and more recently said that “it is licit to stop the unjust aggressor. I underscore the verb ‘stop;’ I don’t say bomb, make war—stop him.” But how we ask?

In addition to the complex factors spilling over from the civil war in Syria and pressure from other neighbors, decades of U.S. political and military intervention, coupled with inadequate social reconciliation programs, have significantly contributed to the current crisis in Iraq.

More bombing will ultimately mean more division, bloodshed, recruitment for extremist organizations, and a continual cycle of violent intervention.

The current state of crisis and the breakdown of state institutions in Libya provide another stark example of the failure of a militarized strategy.

Like Libya, the air strikes in Iraq will ultimately fail to build and maintain sustainable peace in the long-term.

We understand and deeply share the desire to protect people, especially civilians.

However, even when tactics of violent force yield a short term displacement of the adversary’s violence, such violence toward armed actors is often self-perpetuating, as the retributive violence that flares up in response will only propitiate more armed intervention in a tit-for-tat escalation without addressing the root causes of the conflict.

We see this over and over again. It is not “necessary” to continue down this road of self-destruction, as Pope Francis called the hostilities of war the “suicide of humanity.”

There are better, more effective, more healthy and more humanizing ways to protect civilians and to engage this conflict.

Using an alternative frame, here are some “just peace” ways the United States and others can not only help save lives in Iraq and the region, but also begin to transform the conflict and break the cycle of violent intervention.

To begin, the United States should take the following steps:

• Stop U.S. bombing in Iraq to prevent bloodshed, instability and the accumulation of grievances that contribute to the global justification for the Islamic State’s existence among its supporters.
• Provide robust humanitarian assistance to those who are fleeing the violence.
• Provide food and much needed supplies in coordination with the United Nations.
• Engage with the UN, all Iraqi political and religious leaders, and others in the international community on diplomatic efforts for a lasting political solution for Iraq.
• Ensure a significantly more inclusive Iraqi government along with substantive programs of social reconciliation to interrupt the flow and perhaps peel-back some of the persons joining the Islamic State. In the diplomatic strategy, particularly include those with influence on key actors in the Islamic State.
• Work for a political settlement to the crisis in Syria. The conflicts in Iraq and Syria are intricately connected and should be addressed holistically.
• Return to the Geneva peace process for a negotiated settlement to the civil war in Syria and expand the agenda to include regional peace and stability.
• Ensure Iran’s full participation in the process.
• Support community-based nonviolent resistance strategies to transform the conflict and meet the deeper need and grievances of all parties. For example, experts1 have suggested strategies such as parallel institutions, dispersed disruptions, and economic non-cooperation.
• Strengthen financial sanctions against armed actors in the region by working through the UN Security Council. For example, disrupting the Islamic State’s $3 million/day oil revenue from the underground market would go a long way toward blunting violence.
• Bring in and significantly invest in professionally trained unarmed civilian protection organizations to assist and offer some buffer for displaced persons and refugees, both for this conflict in collaboration with Iraqi’s and for future conflicts.
• Call for and uphold an arms embargo on all parties to the conflict. U.S. arms and military assistance to the government forces and ethnic militias in Iraq, in addition to arming Syrian rebel groups, have only fueled the carnage, in part due to weapons intended for one group being taken and used by others. All armed parties have been accused of committing gross violations of human rights. Along with Russia, work with key regional players such as Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Kuwait to take independent initiatives and meaningful steps towards an arms embargo on all parties in the conflict.
• Support Iraqi civil society efforts to build peace, reconciliation, and accountability at the community level. Deep sectarian and ethnic divisions have long been exacerbated by various factors, including the U.S. military intervention in 2003. Sustainable peace will require peacebuilding and reconciliation efforts from the ground up.

With hope, deep-felt prayers, and a splash of courage, we ask you to move us beyond the ways of war and into the frontier of just peace responses to violent conflict.

Susan T. Henry-Crowe, MDiv.DD,
General Secretary – General Board of Church and Society – The United Methodist Church

Rev. Gradye Parsons
Stated Clerk of the General Assembly – Presbyterian Church (USA)
Executive Director – Leadership Conference of Women Religious
Executive Secretary – Friends Committee on National Legislation
General Secretary – American Friends Service Committee

Rev. Julia Brown Karimu
Global Ministries of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) and United Church of Christ

Rev. Dr. James Moos
Global Ministries of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) and United Church of Christ
Director, DC office – United Church of Christ, Justice and Witness Ministries

Eli McCarthy, PhD
Director of Justice and Peace – Conference of Major Superiors of Men
Executive Director – Franciscan Action Network

Stanley J. Noffsinger,
General Secretary – Church of the Brethren

Sr. Patricia Chappell
Executive Director – Pax Christi International
Maryknoll Office for Global Concerns – Columban Center for Advocacy and Outreach

Rev. Michael Neuroth
Policy Advocate for International Issues – United Church of Christ, Justice and Witness Ministries

Very Rev. Michael Duggan, MM
U.S. Regional Superior of Maryknoll Fathers and Brothers

Very Rev. Carl Chudy, SX
Provincial Superior of Xaverian Missionaries in U.S.

Very Rev. Domenico Di Raimondo, M.Sp.S.
Provincial Superior of Missionaries of the Holy Spirit
Christ the Priest Province
Provincial Council of the Clerics of St. Viator (Viatorians)

María Teresa Dávila, PhD
Assistant Professor of Christian Ethics- Andover Newton Theological School

Bill Barbieri, PhD
Professor of Religion and Culture and Moral Theology/Ethics – Catholic University

Rev. Dr. Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite
Professor of Theology – Chicago Theological Seminary

Sr. Marianne Farina, CSC
Dominican School of Philosophy and Theology

Laurie Johnston, PhD
Assistant Professor of Theology and Religious Studies
Emmanuel College

Rev. Priscilla Eppinger, PhD
Associate Professor of Religion – Graceland University/Community of Christ Seminary
Ellacuria Chair of Catholic Social Thought – Georgetown University

Fr. Ray Kemp, S.T.L.
Theology Professor – Georgetown University

Francis X. Clooney, SJ
Parkman Professor of Divinity – Director, The Center for the Study of World Religions –Harvard University

Betty Reardon, PhD
Founding Director Emeritus – International Institute on Peace Education

Maureen O’Connell, PhD
Associate Professor of Theology and Chair of Department of Religion – LaSalle University

Amir Hussain, PhD
Professor of Theological Studies – Loyola Marymount University

Kathleen Maas Weigert, PhD

Carolyn Farrell, BVM, Professor of Women and Leadership – Loyola University Chicago

David Cortright, PhD
Director of Policy Studies - Kroc Institute for International Peace Studies – Notre Dame University

Margaret Pfeil, PhD
Assistant Professor of Theology/Ethics – Notre Dame University

John Berkman, PhD
Professor of Moral Theology – Regis College, University of Toronto

Gerald W. Schlabach
Professor of Theology – University of St. Thomas

John Sniegocki, PhD
Associate Professor of Christian Ethics – Director, Peace Studies Minor – Xavier University

Kathryn Getek Soltis, PhD
Director, Center for Peace and Justice Education – Assistant Professor of Christian Ethics –Villanova University

Suzanne C. Toton, EdD
Theology and Religious Studies Department – Villanova University

Rev. Louis Arceneaux, C.M.
Promoter of Peace and Justice – Western Province, Congregation of the Mission, USA

Fr. Robert Bossie, SCJ
Priests of the Sacred Heart

Fr. John A. Coleman, S.J.
Society of Jesus, Saint Ignatius Parish, San Francisco, CA

Fr. John Converset, MCCJ
Office of Justice, Peace and Integrity of Creation – North American Province of Comboni Missionaries

Doreen Glynn, CSJ
Justice Coordinator – Sisters of St. Joseph of Carondelet, Albany Province

Bro. Michael Gosch, CSV
Justice, Peace, Integrity of Creation Director – Clerics of St. Viator (Viatorians)

Jude A. Huntz, Director
Office for Peace and Justice – Archdiocese of Chicago

Bro. Brian McLauchlin, SVD
Justice, Peace, Integrity of Creation Promoter

Bro. Frank O’Donnell, SM

Bro. Jerry Sullivan, SM

Rev. Dr. Peter A. Wells
Justice LED Organizer – United Church of Christ, Justice and Witness Ministries

Bro. Stan Zubek, SM

Open letter also sent to:
- U.S. Secretary of State, John Kerry
- U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, Samantha Power
- Department of State, Undersecretary for Civilian Security, Democracy, and Human Rights, Sarah Sewall
- USAID, Assistant Administrator for the Bureau for Democracy, Conflict and Humanitarian Assistance, Nancy Lindborg
- Special Advisor to the Secretary of State for Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, Shaun Casey

Saudi king warns West will be jihadists' next target

15 hours ago

Pro-Russia rebels confident after making gains

By PETER LEONARD5 hours ago

STAROBESHEVE, Ukraine (AP) — As the survivor of a tank attack on a Ukrainian army truck was being carried into an ambulance, he was showered with verbal abuse by a rebel fighter.

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"Why didn't you say before that you were alive? Why so quiet?" the rebel taunted. Minutes later, the Ukrainian soldier drew his last breath.

Under the gaze of rebels, Ukrainian soldiers loaded the bodies of six other dead comrades onto trucks outside the village of Starobesheve. A couple of kilometers away, in the village itself, other rebels made wisecracks and boasted about dealing another punishing blow to Ukrainian forces.

After weeks of yielding ground, the Russian-backed separatists are brimming with confidence following a string of seemingly effortless victories.

On Saturday, Ukraine announced it was abandoning Ilovaisk, a city 25 kilometers (15 miles) north of Starobesheve. Surrounded on all sides over several days, they sustained fire so intense that the government was compelled to plead for a corridor out.

"We are surrendering this city," said Ukrainian Col. Andriy Lysenko, a spokesman for the national security council. "Our task now is to evacuate our military with the least possible losses in order to regroup."

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Ukrainian army personnel load the body of a dead government soldier into a truck in the rebel-held t …

Lysenko said that regular units of the military had also been ordered to retreat from Novosvitlivka and Khryashchuvate, two towns on the main road between the Russian border and Luhansk, the second-largest rebel-held city. Ukraine had claimed control of Novosvitlivka earlier in August.

Adding to that, Ukrainian government forces are now facing the prospect of an onslaught from yet another front along the coast of the southeastern Azov Sea.

Ukraine and numerous Western governments have said they believe rebels have been amply supplied with powerful Russian weaponry and that regular Russian troops are engaged in combat. NATO estimates that at least 1,000 Russian soldiers are in Ukraine even though Russia heatedly denies any involvement in fighting that has so far claimed at least 2,600 lives, according to U.N. figures.

Preparations for the evacuation from Ilovaisk were spotted by AP reporters Saturday morning in the village of Mykolaivka, 50 kilometers (30 miles) away, where 20 flatbed trucks were parked in line primed to go and collect stranded Ukrainian troops. Anxious Mykolaivka residents reported hearing blasts of artillery Friday and the convoy made painstaking progress throughout the day to avoid rebel ambushes.

After more than an hour's travel through tortuous country roads, the convoy reached the countryside outside Starobesheve and joined up with about 15 government ambulances readied to collect the wounded.

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A pro-Russian rebel watches as Ukrainian troops are evacuated from the rebel-held town of Starobeshe …

As drivers awaited the order to move, a green army truck drove in from the opposite direction packed with weary and evidently traumatized soldiers. Speaking over one another, they said rebels reneged on promises to provide a safe corridor out of Ilovaisk and opened fire on departing Ukrainians troops.

Although palpably frustrated with what they see as fatally indecisive leadership from the authorities, rank-and-file troops are reluctant to go on the record with their complaints for fear of reprisals.

But their rage Saturday was mainly reserved for their opponents.

"We came from Ilovaisk bearing white flags," said one soldier, who declined to give his name and had his face covered with a mask. "They shot us from all sides. We were not engaged in military actions. We were just on the move."

While none could offer a specific estimate of how many had died, they said the deaths may have numbered in the dozens.

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Ukrainian army personnel remove a bulletproof vest from the body of a Ukrainian government soldier k …

Ukrainian National Guard Lt. Col. Nikolai Gordienko, who was accompanying the evacuation operation, said the attack on departing soldiers constituted a violation of international conventions.

The surrounding area has been scene of skirmishes and shelling attacks over the past week.

In Starobesheve, the dozens of rebels milling around the otherwise deserted rural settlement were jubilant Saturday over having trapped a column of Ukrainian tanks and armored personnel carriers after a brief battle that morning. Standing in groups, some fighters shared jokes and battle stories, while one showed off pictures taken on his phone of insignia from troops in the trapped Ukrainian battalions.

At one stage in the afternoon, three rebel tanks raced up to the local police station, which now operates at the local rebel headquarters, only to be angrily ordered back down the hill by the local commander.

One separatist fighter, who provided only his first name Sergei and the nom de guerre Frantsuz (Frenchman), said the Ukrainian armored column was intercepted while it was traveling to Ilovaisk to assist in evacuating government troops.

View gallery

A pro-Russian rebel watches as Ukrainian troops evacuated from the rebel-held town of Starobesheve, …

"They wanted to take Starobesheve, but this operation failed," he said. "Starobesheve remains under our control and their equipment is under our control."

After hours of negotiations, dozens of Ukrainian troops were allowed to leave the village riding on six APCs, but without ammunition.

Frantsuz said rebel commanders agreed to allow ambulances and trucks to travel to Ilovaisk to take away the injured and the dead.

Near a bridge on the road out of the village, six bodies lay in disarray around a medical truck that was torn apart by a rebel tank shell. Ukrainian army personnel dragged away the bodies with cables — a precaution adopted to avoid impact from possible unexploded ordnance. A man in the recovery group wretched after one especially mangled body was loaded into a truck.

Although the bodies showed signs of having lain in the open overnight, one severely injured man in the crew was found to still be alive and was carried away for treatment.

About half an hour later, he too died and was tipped face down into the back of the truck along with the other men.